QANTAS operating single pilot?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
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Well where do you stop? Virgin Blue mentions every crew member (including Cabin Crew) just prior to their safety drill.
It's a nice touch, don't know if I'd want to have to hear 19 names on a 747 though!
It's a nice touch, don't know if I'd want to have to hear 19 names on a 747 though!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Do your F/O's call you by first name?
Ever flown for an Asian airline with Asian crew, Woftam?
As a matter of fact, do you ever SPEAK with any pilots who do?
Obviously not, as your question reveals your "ignorance" of other cultures.
But in reply to your question - one or two do, occasionally. But only because they have lived outside their home country for extended periods and have some understanding of our culture.
Furthermore, other (Asian) captains also use "Captain" or "- - - san" as the usual (and informal) form of address. NEVER first names!
You really need to expand your horizons, Woftam, and try to understand other cultures.
As to the CRM issue, IMHO, being TOLD to NOT include the F/O`s name as part of the PA subtly sends a message to the F/O.
Ever flown for an Asian airline with Asian crew, Woftam?
As a matter of fact, do you ever SPEAK with any pilots who do?
Obviously not, as your question reveals your "ignorance" of other cultures.
But in reply to your question - one or two do, occasionally. But only because they have lived outside their home country for extended periods and have some understanding of our culture.
Furthermore, other (Asian) captains also use "Captain" or "- - - san" as the usual (and informal) form of address. NEVER first names!
You really need to expand your horizons, Woftam, and try to understand other cultures.
As to the CRM issue, IMHO, being TOLD to NOT include the F/O`s name as part of the PA subtly sends a message to the F/O.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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As I said earlier Kaptin M.........Yawn!!!!!
You sound like you would be absolutely fantastic at CRM.
Your track record shows that if someone dares to disagree with the great Kaptin M or have a different opinion than yours they are howled down and abused.
Have a nice day.
You sound like you would be absolutely fantastic at CRM.
Your track record shows that if someone dares to disagree with the great Kaptin M or have a different opinion than yours they are howled down and abused.
Have a nice day.
Kaptin M-
I don’t know why everyone seems to pick on you! Perhaps you should consider your “delivery”. For instance, one does not have to use a railway sleeper to kill a cat?
I agree with your sentiment in the initial post but others have missed your point, because you often seem “bombastic” in your approach.
Being an ex Ansett pilot from pre 1989 you would have experienced a good deal of “single pilot” mentality from some of your Captains.
The message from Flight Operations in Ansett over the last few years of operation was that “The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s.
How line crews handled this varied enormously.Some F/O’s felt obliged to introduce themselves as the Captain, if they made the PA. etc etc.
I guess there is no simple answer but on the balance of probability you and I are probably correct and everyone else is wrong!
I don’t know why everyone seems to pick on you! Perhaps you should consider your “delivery”. For instance, one does not have to use a railway sleeper to kill a cat?
I agree with your sentiment in the initial post but others have missed your point, because you often seem “bombastic” in your approach.
Being an ex Ansett pilot from pre 1989 you would have experienced a good deal of “single pilot” mentality from some of your Captains.
The message from Flight Operations in Ansett over the last few years of operation was that “The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s.
How line crews handled this varied enormously.Some F/O’s felt obliged to introduce themselves as the Captain, if they made the PA. etc etc.
I guess there is no simple answer but on the balance of probability you and I are probably correct and everyone else is wrong!
Nunc est bibendum
Just to clarify!!
Huge difference between including the F/O and S/Os in your initial PA and telling the punters he or she is flying the sector. Doesn't particularly bother me either way, I just find it interesting to find out who does and doesn't!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
one does not have to use a railway sleeper to kill a cat
Perhaps a common mistake some of us (myself included) make, is that because PPRuNe is targeted at professional pilots, we expect a modicum of intelligence to be displayed in the posts.
In addition, I would - on the one hand - class pilots as generally open-minded, occasionally unconventional/non-convential, and tolerant.
And on the other hand, classify them precisely 180 degrees the other way!
How many pilots with whom you associate, do you think of as being singularly selfish, but overly generous in social situations?
"Many", if not "most", I would {personally} reply.
Sorry if "bombastic" is the way I come across - the written word is NOT one of my stronger subjects!
Quite the contrary, in fact.
The pre-'89 Ansett pilots more-or-less looked upon themselves as a "family", handing on from one generation to the next the (high) standards that were expected to be maintained. As such, there was a sharing and nurturing that generally precluded the "single pilot" mentality.
Words of advice that will ALWAYS stay in my mind, came from one of those AN Captains relatively early in my career, and they were,
"I have to train you to a standard that I'll be happy with, so that if ever you're flying my family somewhere, I won't have to worry about them."
Single pilot mentalities, in multi-crew scenarios, just don't fit into that scope!!
"The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s."
Quite FRANKLY, "The Public" generally wouldn't have a clue WHO was making the P.A.
If it's a male voice, they assume it's "The Captain".
(Conversely, if it's a female [voice], they presume it's "Cabin Crew"). Sexist as that remark seems, I'm afraid it would generally be qualified as correct!
Having said that, there is absolutely NO reason that the manipulating pilot could not introduce himself (on the P.A.) as, for example, "Good xxxxxxx , this is the pilot speaking. Blah, blah, blah."
This is ASSUMING of course, that the EGO in the lhs allows it.
For those of you who are unsure as to whom should be mentioned in the P.A. - hang around aviation a little longer and the answer(s) will slowly (but surely) crystallise!
Perhaps a common mistake some of us (myself included) make, is that because PPRuNe is targeted at professional pilots, we expect a modicum of intelligence to be displayed in the posts.
In addition, I would - on the one hand - class pilots as generally open-minded, occasionally unconventional/non-convential, and tolerant.
And on the other hand, classify them precisely 180 degrees the other way!
How many pilots with whom you associate, do you think of as being singularly selfish, but overly generous in social situations?
"Many", if not "most", I would {personally} reply.
Sorry if "bombastic" is the way I come across - the written word is NOT one of my stronger subjects!
Being an ex Ansett pilot from pre 1989 you would have experienced a good deal of “single pilot” mentality from some of your Captains.
The pre-'89 Ansett pilots more-or-less looked upon themselves as a "family", handing on from one generation to the next the (high) standards that were expected to be maintained. As such, there was a sharing and nurturing that generally precluded the "single pilot" mentality.
Words of advice that will ALWAYS stay in my mind, came from one of those AN Captains relatively early in my career, and they were,
"I have to train you to a standard that I'll be happy with, so that if ever you're flying my family somewhere, I won't have to worry about them."
Single pilot mentalities, in multi-crew scenarios, just don't fit into that scope!!
"The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s."
Quite FRANKLY, "The Public" generally wouldn't have a clue WHO was making the P.A.
If it's a male voice, they assume it's "The Captain".
(Conversely, if it's a female [voice], they presume it's "Cabin Crew"). Sexist as that remark seems, I'm afraid it would generally be qualified as correct!
Having said that, there is absolutely NO reason that the manipulating pilot could not introduce himself (on the P.A.) as, for example, "Good xxxxxxx , this is the pilot speaking. Blah, blah, blah."
This is ASSUMING of course, that the EGO in the lhs allows it.
For those of you who are unsure as to whom should be mentioned in the P.A. - hang around aviation a little longer and the answer(s) will slowly (but surely) crystallise!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Life as a journey, maybe YOU have hit the nail on the head, when you say ,"..it is Qantas that is determining the run of the mill"
Because maybe QANTAS have NOT got the CRM issue RIGHT! (Sorry, Keg)
It's just possible that the problem starts from the gound up!
As a full-fare paying, frequent flyer of QANTAS, I challenge the staement that the pax want to hear ONLY from the captain!
And IF that IS the case, why do they (QANTAS) allow the Cabin Crew to make P.A.'s?
Captains (in every airline) are the END PRODUCT of the END PRODUCT.
The final market product of every airline is the FLIGHT - conducted in the airplane.
And the manager of that FINAL PRODUCT is the Captain AND the First Officer.
Like it or not.
Because maybe QANTAS have NOT got the CRM issue RIGHT! (Sorry, Keg)
It's just possible that the problem starts from the gound up!
As a full-fare paying, frequent flyer of QANTAS, I challenge the staement that the pax want to hear ONLY from the captain!
And IF that IS the case, why do they (QANTAS) allow the Cabin Crew to make P.A.'s?
Captains (in every airline) are the END PRODUCT of the END PRODUCT.
The final market product of every airline is the FLIGHT - conducted in the airplane.
And the manager of that FINAL PRODUCT is the Captain AND the First Officer.
Like it or not.
Kaptin M,
you are taking a small piddly non-issue and trying to turn it into the next contributing factor in a major incident!
The reality, is 99% of the guys I have flown with dont give a toss if their name is, or is not mentioned. In fact, most of the time no one else on the flight deck is actually listening to the pre-flight PA, as they are usually doing something else, trying to get away on time.
For the record, as a SO I have been mentioned more than 50% of the time I have been given a sector.
What is annoying is when the Captain and the FO both try and make you laugh when you are trying to get out the PA at TOD that you have spent the last 15 minutes trying to work out what to say!!
We dont care, the majority of passengers dont care; get over it.
you are taking a small piddly non-issue and trying to turn it into the next contributing factor in a major incident!
The reality, is 99% of the guys I have flown with dont give a toss if their name is, or is not mentioned. In fact, most of the time no one else on the flight deck is actually listening to the pre-flight PA, as they are usually doing something else, trying to get away on time.
For the record, as a SO I have been mentioned more than 50% of the time I have been given a sector.
What is annoying is when the Captain and the FO both try and make you laugh when you are trying to get out the PA at TOD that you have spent the last 15 minutes trying to work out what to say!!
We dont care, the majority of passengers dont care; get over it.
Nunc est bibendum
I think the point the Kaptin is trying to make is the intangible messages that it sends to both punters and operating crew. Firstly, whilst punters want to know that the boss is doing the work and probably feel 'safer' that way, it is a 'feeling that is based on false assumptions and ignorance. In this area we have an obligation (in my opinion) to educate the public that it takes two (or three or four) to drive the thing and whilst the boss may be the boss, there are times when others have significant input into what goes on. I acknowledge that to punters, perception is their reality and that that issue needs to be acknowledged but that shouldn't mean that we just 'accept' their reality. We should be attempting to alter their perception.
Whilst those of us who 'get' CRM or are comfortable with it's concepts may find the link somewhat thin between acknowledging the F/O and/or S/O in a PA at some stage , it nevertheless does send an albeit subtle message that the F/O is 'superfluous' to requirements. The company re-stating that the punters don't want to know about the F/O flying is a further subtle message that the F/O isn't important in the scheme of things. Maybe that IS the reality though and should be the discussion of an entirely new thread. How important are F/Os?
Now before anyone gets stuck into me. I'm not being 'precious' about it and a boss who doesn't acknowledge me will still get my full support etc, etc and for the most part, I won't think anything about it/them at all. I'm also not saying that it is big enough to be a safety issue- big enough to rate a mention in the crash investigation anyway. In a time though where CRM is moving gradually away from imploring Captains to be more 'inclusive' etc and moving towards skilling up F/Os to be more assertive, speak up more, etc, I find it interesting that the company would endorse something that could be construed by some more fragile personalities as being told 'back in your box'.
Yes Kap, there are CRM issues in QF just as there would be CRM issues in most airlines. Certainly, it appears that QFs heart is in the right place at the moment in terms of trying to make inroads to improving CRM and Human Factors skills in it's crews. Maybe this one will ultimately be addressed, maybe not.
Anyway, the bosses address is:
Geoff Dixon
CEO
QANTAS Airways Ltd
203 Coward St
Mascot, NSW, 2020
I'd also CC a copy to:
Captain Ian Lucas
Group General Manager Flight Operations and Chief Pilot (hows that for a title!!)
QANTAS Airways Ltd, etc, etc, etc.
Be interested to see if they write back!
Finally, I'll re-iterate again that from memory, the burst was always to not mention that the F/O or S/O was 'flying' the aircraft. That doesn't mean that we can't add their name in a PA somewhere or at least acknowledge their presence and skills in some way.
ACtually, just thought of something else. Watching the news this morning and noted that 'the pilot' survived the F50 crash in Europe. If we don't make the effort to get it right, why should the journo's. (My sympathies to the family of the other pilot who unfortunately didn't survive)
Whilst those of us who 'get' CRM or are comfortable with it's concepts may find the link somewhat thin between acknowledging the F/O and/or S/O in a PA at some stage , it nevertheless does send an albeit subtle message that the F/O is 'superfluous' to requirements. The company re-stating that the punters don't want to know about the F/O flying is a further subtle message that the F/O isn't important in the scheme of things. Maybe that IS the reality though and should be the discussion of an entirely new thread. How important are F/Os?
Now before anyone gets stuck into me. I'm not being 'precious' about it and a boss who doesn't acknowledge me will still get my full support etc, etc and for the most part, I won't think anything about it/them at all. I'm also not saying that it is big enough to be a safety issue- big enough to rate a mention in the crash investigation anyway. In a time though where CRM is moving gradually away from imploring Captains to be more 'inclusive' etc and moving towards skilling up F/Os to be more assertive, speak up more, etc, I find it interesting that the company would endorse something that could be construed by some more fragile personalities as being told 'back in your box'.
Yes Kap, there are CRM issues in QF just as there would be CRM issues in most airlines. Certainly, it appears that QFs heart is in the right place at the moment in terms of trying to make inroads to improving CRM and Human Factors skills in it's crews. Maybe this one will ultimately be addressed, maybe not.
Anyway, the bosses address is:
Geoff Dixon
CEO
QANTAS Airways Ltd
203 Coward St
Mascot, NSW, 2020
I'd also CC a copy to:
Captain Ian Lucas
Group General Manager Flight Operations and Chief Pilot (hows that for a title!!)
QANTAS Airways Ltd, etc, etc, etc.
Be interested to see if they write back!
Finally, I'll re-iterate again that from memory, the burst was always to not mention that the F/O or S/O was 'flying' the aircraft. That doesn't mean that we can't add their name in a PA somewhere or at least acknowledge their presence and skills in some way.
ACtually, just thought of something else. Watching the news this morning and noted that 'the pilot' survived the F50 crash in Europe. If we don't make the effort to get it right, why should the journo's. (My sympathies to the family of the other pilot who unfortunately didn't survive)
Join Date: Mar 2001
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My sixpenneth worth:
The whole PR business of should or should not the F/O or S/O be mentioned is a case of the PR horse being put too far in front of the cart.
Whilst surveys may well indicate that pax prefer to believe that the Captain is actually flying, because they believe the Captain to be the more experienced pilot on board, I don't believe there exists the potential passenger, who will decide whether to fly, or which airline to fly on, based on who is perceived to be flying, or who makes the P.A.
What would have far more impact from a PR point of view, is happy and pleasant service from cabin crew. As close to on time operations from the whole airline, and a confident sounding P.A. from whom ever makes it.
Some P.A.s I've heard over the years would put the frighteners on any one!
Whilst surveys may well indicate that pax prefer to believe that the Captain is actually flying, because they believe the Captain to be the more experienced pilot on board, I don't believe there exists the potential passenger, who will decide whether to fly, or which airline to fly on, based on who is perceived to be flying, or who makes the P.A.
What would have far more impact from a PR point of view, is happy and pleasant service from cabin crew. As close to on time operations from the whole airline, and a confident sounding P.A. from whom ever makes it.
Some P.A.s I've heard over the years would put the frighteners on any one!
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Strewth!
After reading the above I felt quite weepy. and felt like getting in touch with a side of feminine.
Put your hair up and get your dress on.
BTW, does your husband fly too?
Hey!
Someone please tell me the person that posted this is still a F/o.
No, seriously, I have a bunch of QF Frequent Flyer points to use and the mere thought of being on the same aircraft gives me heartburn.
Speaking of hearts, the Skipper could die of heartbreak listening to this sob-story?
Sob!
It’s OK, that was me.
After reading the above I felt quite weepy. and felt like getting in touch with a side of feminine.
Put your hair up and get your dress on.
BTW, does your husband fly too?
Hey!
Someone please tell me the person that posted this is still a F/o.
No, seriously, I have a bunch of QF Frequent Flyer points to use and the mere thought of being on the same aircraft gives me heartburn.
Speaking of hearts, the Skipper could die of heartbreak listening to this sob-story?
Sob!
It’s OK, that was me.
