Eagle Air Interviewing
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Yeah Kavu it baffles the hell out of me as well. Why would eagle be turning down good pilots with lots of multi IF time some of them with over 100hrs turbine PIC? They are all good guys as well.
It seems that eagle are taking a big punt on the inexperienced( by way of multi I.F.). They must be trying to mold them into how they like it done like the military do.
It seems that eagle are taking a big punt on the inexperienced( by way of multi I.F.). They must be trying to mold them into how they like it done like the military do.
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Kavu and GAMAN,
The difference between a low time instructor and a high time (relatively) GA single pilot is sometimes the instructor hasn't had the chance to learn any bad habits.
From what i've heard the new instructors aren't doing to bad a job with their training.
The difference between a low time instructor and a high time (relatively) GA single pilot is sometimes the instructor hasn't had the chance to learn any bad habits.
From what i've heard the new instructors aren't doing to bad a job with their training.
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It's probably a case of being able to more easily teach a relatively low time instructor in the 'eagle' way of flying rather than a GA pilot with habits already formed. A bit unfair but it's been that way for a while now. Alot of GA pilots with good time usually by-pass Eagle and end up at Air Nelson or Mt Cook (depending on where they did their flying). I've never been able to work out the psych behind it all either, but then thats management logic for you!
I don't know of how many pilots have interviews at Eagle, but I know of at least 4 guys from Eagle that have interviews at Air NZ, if that helps.
I've heard the same rumour about Freedom and Air NZ, but there are alot of rumours going around at the moment, and who knows what to believe. I'd be surprised if Freedom interviewed so soon, especially since I know that there are still a few pilots around who went away and did a type rating around the time of 9/11 and didn't end up with a job with SJ at the end of it as promised.... There is also the rumour that the union has had a bit to play in what is going on there and that they want Air NZ pilots to be able to move across if they want (for commands)..... again, who knows what to believe!
If any of you are waiting for Eagle interviews or the upcoming Air NZ; GOOD LUCK!
I don't know of how many pilots have interviews at Eagle, but I know of at least 4 guys from Eagle that have interviews at Air NZ, if that helps.
I've heard the same rumour about Freedom and Air NZ, but there are alot of rumours going around at the moment, and who knows what to believe. I'd be surprised if Freedom interviewed so soon, especially since I know that there are still a few pilots around who went away and did a type rating around the time of 9/11 and didn't end up with a job with SJ at the end of it as promised.... There is also the rumour that the union has had a bit to play in what is going on there and that they want Air NZ pilots to be able to move across if they want (for commands)..... again, who knows what to believe!
If any of you are waiting for Eagle interviews or the upcoming Air NZ; GOOD LUCK!
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Can anyone reasonably explain to me what these bad habits may be and how they can outweigh having 500 odd hours of multi single pilot air transport ops??????
I know who I would prefer up the front going into somewhere on an NDB/DME with the wind blowing and the rain.....raining at night.
I know who I would prefer up the front going into somewhere on an NDB/DME with the wind blowing and the rain.....raining at night.
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Easily explained - it's New Zealand. Same reason why a huge bunch of Eagle and Air Nelson drivers have banged on the door to Air NZ and just can't get a look in. Even though they have been flying round the traps for the last 5 or 10 years and updating their CV every 6 months. 
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Hi Guys (oops and I suppose girls!! )
I think we all know that Airlines have a weird way of employing pilots. We all know people who should've got in and didn't, likewise we know of guys/gals in jobs that should've gone to more deserving people.
C'est la vie
However, on the bright side, Air NZ is running interviews in Dec & Jan for the people from the last attempt in Sep 01 (and who knows who else). Most that got through the Ansett version have been given a call, most but not all. Some chap/s from aussie also got the call. Some that didn't get the last nod (Sep 01) have also got interviews.
So it's a mixed bag.
Given that some are from NSN, EAG and Origin, one might assume that there will be movement in these areas so keep updating.
Apparently NSN (& EAG) is/are short crewed (what's new) most of the NSN temps have jobs with Origin or Mt Cook or have had Cathay interviews so who knows if they will be available. (what a costly exercise )
All one can say is get the hours, the subjects, keep updating and plugging away.
Best wishes to all for the festive season
)I think we all know that Airlines have a weird way of employing pilots. We all know people who should've got in and didn't, likewise we know of guys/gals in jobs that should've gone to more deserving people.
C'est la vie
However, on the bright side, Air NZ is running interviews in Dec & Jan for the people from the last attempt in Sep 01 (and who knows who else). Most that got through the Ansett version have been given a call, most but not all. Some chap/s from aussie also got the call. Some that didn't get the last nod (Sep 01) have also got interviews.
So it's a mixed bag.
Given that some are from NSN, EAG and Origin, one might assume that there will be movement in these areas so keep updating.
Apparently NSN (& EAG) is/are short crewed (what's new) most of the NSN temps have jobs with Origin or Mt Cook or have had Cathay interviews so who knows if they will be available. (what a costly exercise
)All one can say is get the hours, the subjects, keep updating and plugging away.
Best wishes to all for the festive season
Last edited by CT7; 16th Nov 2002 at 21:34.
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An interesting if somewhat convoluted thread. If i can add my 10cents worth....
On Interviewing...
We are all licenced professional pilots who roughly have the same experience with our peers who are competing for the same jobs as we are so there is generally nothing to distinguish us there.
1.Tech questions: are usually broad brush, general and practical in nature ie Top of descent into HN via the arc in an unprex aircraft at 180kts. They are designed to see you have the basic level of knowledge.
2. Sim rides: are there to examine basic skills. They are NOT trying to grade your ability as ace of the base, just see you can track/hold and do an NDB approach usind an RMI (and FYI not the poor mans version that is in most GA IFR aircraft). The history behind Eagle doing sims, as someone quite accuratly pointed out earlier on, was due solely the fact that with the major hiring that went on between 1999 and 2001 the experience level dropped dramatically and people were slipping through the net with virtually no idea about flying IFR.
3. Personal questions and attitude: There is a principle applied to interviewing in aviation called FIFO, some would have heard of it. It stands for "Fit In Or F*** Off". What an employer is looking for is not only technical competence but workforce harmony ie can this person i am talking to relate to others and get on in a group/crew situation?At the end of the day both guys should flying to the SOP's but how are you going to relate to the other guy, what are you going to talk about for days you are together, how will you handle the enevitable personality clashes that can arise for no other reason than people are different? It is most often flightdeck relationships that cause problems/accidents not technical incompetence! If there is any advice from my small pocket of experience i can give in this regard it would be; be confident of your abilities but NOT over confident and NEVER arrogant, be humble about your achievements and always, ALWAYS tell the truth, good bad or indifferent. You are who you are, be proud of it and don't pretend to be something you are not because you will get found out.
Be under no misapprehension, the people interviewing you know alot more about you than you realise!
On "people getting jobs before me, because their Dad is a pilot..."
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!!! Be happy for people who get jobs because of a contact, at the very least because you don't know when that person might be in a position to influence your next move. But more importantly you would want people to feel happy for you if you got a job. Further more if you get an opportunity as someone said earlier it is just that, an opportunity to pass the interview or the training etc, it DOES NOT mean you forfeit the need to do the interview/training.If you want to tie yourself in knots worrying about stuff like that, you obviously don't get out much!
On "this airline vs that airline..."
Every job is a trade off.
In the turbo prop world, it don't matter a jot. It is still all domestic turbo prop work. Enjoy it because it can be some of the best flying you will ever do. For those who choose to be lifers in the regionals all power to them but they ain't going to earn alot of dosh and most guys in that position have thought that through and are at peace with their decision.The other point worth considering is that you get to the highest level you can achieve relatively quickly and you still have another 30 plus years doing the same job. if you do move on to the majors it is 90% about the dosh and even though the progress is slow at some, there are still challenges to be had ahead of you. If you do make the leap to the majors as an S/O don't for as minute think that professional job satisfaction is included in the package but contrary to what "Sharfted Ground hog" et al say its not all about your skills as a barrista (coffee maker for the uneducated).
Hope my comments can help those prospective interviewees who originally started the thread.
On Interviewing...
We are all licenced professional pilots who roughly have the same experience with our peers who are competing for the same jobs as we are so there is generally nothing to distinguish us there.
1.Tech questions: are usually broad brush, general and practical in nature ie Top of descent into HN via the arc in an unprex aircraft at 180kts. They are designed to see you have the basic level of knowledge.
2. Sim rides: are there to examine basic skills. They are NOT trying to grade your ability as ace of the base, just see you can track/hold and do an NDB approach usind an RMI (and FYI not the poor mans version that is in most GA IFR aircraft). The history behind Eagle doing sims, as someone quite accuratly pointed out earlier on, was due solely the fact that with the major hiring that went on between 1999 and 2001 the experience level dropped dramatically and people were slipping through the net with virtually no idea about flying IFR.
3. Personal questions and attitude: There is a principle applied to interviewing in aviation called FIFO, some would have heard of it. It stands for "Fit In Or F*** Off". What an employer is looking for is not only technical competence but workforce harmony ie can this person i am talking to relate to others and get on in a group/crew situation?At the end of the day both guys should flying to the SOP's but how are you going to relate to the other guy, what are you going to talk about for days you are together, how will you handle the enevitable personality clashes that can arise for no other reason than people are different? It is most often flightdeck relationships that cause problems/accidents not technical incompetence! If there is any advice from my small pocket of experience i can give in this regard it would be; be confident of your abilities but NOT over confident and NEVER arrogant, be humble about your achievements and always, ALWAYS tell the truth, good bad or indifferent. You are who you are, be proud of it and don't pretend to be something you are not because you will get found out.
Be under no misapprehension, the people interviewing you know alot more about you than you realise!
On "people getting jobs before me, because their Dad is a pilot..."
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!!! Be happy for people who get jobs because of a contact, at the very least because you don't know when that person might be in a position to influence your next move. But more importantly you would want people to feel happy for you if you got a job. Further more if you get an opportunity as someone said earlier it is just that, an opportunity to pass the interview or the training etc, it DOES NOT mean you forfeit the need to do the interview/training.If you want to tie yourself in knots worrying about stuff like that, you obviously don't get out much!
On "this airline vs that airline..."
Every job is a trade off.
In the turbo prop world, it don't matter a jot. It is still all domestic turbo prop work. Enjoy it because it can be some of the best flying you will ever do. For those who choose to be lifers in the regionals all power to them but they ain't going to earn alot of dosh and most guys in that position have thought that through and are at peace with their decision.The other point worth considering is that you get to the highest level you can achieve relatively quickly and you still have another 30 plus years doing the same job. if you do move on to the majors it is 90% about the dosh and even though the progress is slow at some, there are still challenges to be had ahead of you. If you do make the leap to the majors as an S/O don't for as minute think that professional job satisfaction is included in the package but contrary to what "Sharfted Ground hog" et al say its not all about your skills as a barrista (coffee maker for the uneducated).
Hope my comments can help those prospective interviewees who originally started the thread.
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Scud,
nice post and well brought back to the subject at hand.
Regarding the personality questions expected and how to handle them your advise on Honesty and further to that Integrety are the best things to get across during any interview, unfortunaly these are two things you either have or you dont.
The news from the last round of interviews is 3 have been offered a ground course. Well done to them and for those who didnt make it dont give up, your skills will be required soon as the up cycle has clearly begun.
nice post and well brought back to the subject at hand.
Regarding the personality questions expected and how to handle them your advise on Honesty and further to that Integrety are the best things to get across during any interview, unfortunaly these are two things you either have or you dont.
The news from the last round of interviews is 3 have been offered a ground course. Well done to them and for those who didnt make it dont give up, your skills will be required soon as the up cycle has clearly begun.
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StepsOff, what you fail to realise is that there are many GA companies that operate with two crew on some of their aircraft. From my experience there is no "you're doing it wrong, I'm better than you" crap or anything else along those lines in the cockpit of these aircraft.
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Scud Driver; totally agree with most that your've written, except for the bit about 'skills as a coffee-maker'..... from my memory, what I was actually writting agreed with your sentiments that job satisfaction doesn't get automatically included in jobs and that long-haul pilots are no better than short-haul or domestic drivers. I also went on to say that we all take different paths in our careers and those choices that we make are our decisions and we should all be happy with them (and not 'down' anyone else that makes different choices). Isn't that what you are saying, just in different words?
Using other people to get you jobs is fine if they in turn can help others. The thing I have found is that they usually don't, and it makes the playing field uneven for the majority, not the minority.
As a matter of interest, we have spoken about base salaries, but nothing about allowances and the rest of the packages available..... does anyone have any idea what the overall package is for S/O's or F/O's with Air NZ? Does it change depending on what aircraft you are employed on or length of service?
For those also waiting on interviews with Eagle, does anyone know what their allowances add up to on an annual basis?
Using other people to get you jobs is fine if they in turn can help others. The thing I have found is that they usually don't, and it makes the playing field uneven for the majority, not the minority.
As a matter of interest, we have spoken about base salaries, but nothing about allowances and the rest of the packages available..... does anyone have any idea what the overall package is for S/O's or F/O's with Air NZ? Does it change depending on what aircraft you are employed on or length of service?
For those also waiting on interviews with Eagle, does anyone know what their allowances add up to on an annual basis?
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GAMAN,
I haven't failed to realise anything. You said quote "...having 500 odd hours of multi single pilot air transport ops...
If there are some GA Men flying around two crew using a good set of S.O.P's then that's useful. If they are just single pilot with the other front seat filled, then that ain't so useful.
Rightly or wrongly, there is an 'Eagle way' and like it or not it is different to the Aztec and Partbanana way.
As Scud said, FIOFO
I haven't failed to realise anything. You said quote "...having 500 odd hours of multi single pilot air transport ops...
If there are some GA Men flying around two crew using a good set of S.O.P's then that's useful. If they are just single pilot with the other front seat filled, then that ain't so useful.
Rightly or wrongly, there is an 'Eagle way' and like it or not it is different to the Aztec and Partbanana way.
As Scud said, FIOFO
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For those asking, and these are ball park only, but good enough...
Eagle allowances 6k
Air NZ allowances,I believe depends on what you are doing ie 737 fleet will be considerably less due to the fact that most of the work is Domestic and regional (ie AUS and PAC Islands), 767/747 getting up towards 20-25k and mostly due to a very favorable exchange rate and more importantly where you are on the seniority list. Air NZ has a thing called the PBS (preferential bidding system) which means that the mosre senior fellas in each rank get the pick of the trips and therefore will generally head for the more lucrative destinations (ie Japan).
But as any of these fellas will tell you THEY DONT BRING THE ALLOWANCES HOME!!!!!! get my drift.
and sharfted G Hog...if my memory serves, you started off down that road but back tracked nicely!
Eagle allowances 6k
Air NZ allowances,I believe depends on what you are doing ie 737 fleet will be considerably less due to the fact that most of the work is Domestic and regional (ie AUS and PAC Islands), 767/747 getting up towards 20-25k and mostly due to a very favorable exchange rate and more importantly where you are on the seniority list. Air NZ has a thing called the PBS (preferential bidding system) which means that the mosre senior fellas in each rank get the pick of the trips and therefore will generally head for the more lucrative destinations (ie Japan).
But as any of these fellas will tell you THEY DONT BRING THE ALLOWANCES HOME!!!!!! get my drift.
and sharfted G Hog...if my memory serves, you started off down that road but back tracked nicely!
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Gaman & Kavu
You can just about train a monkey to fly an IFR aircraft but it is the interpersonal or CRM skills that count when you enter into the world of multi crew operations. Back in the mid 80's I was involved with C & T at Eagle (bandit & chieftain days) I couldn't help but notice that it was the ex instructors that slotted into the captain role fairly well. I suspected at the time that it had something to do with the ability to manage other people. Many CRM courses in various parts of the world since then have confirmed to me that a good instructor, by virtue of having to get the best out of people in their instructional role, will usually develop an excellent CRM toolbox at an early stage in their career that will serve them well in the multi crew environment.
You can just about train a monkey to fly an IFR aircraft but it is the interpersonal or CRM skills that count when you enter into the world of multi crew operations. Back in the mid 80's I was involved with C & T at Eagle (bandit & chieftain days) I couldn't help but notice that it was the ex instructors that slotted into the captain role fairly well. I suspected at the time that it had something to do with the ability to manage other people. Many CRM courses in various parts of the world since then have confirmed to me that a good instructor, by virtue of having to get the best out of people in their instructional role, will usually develop an excellent CRM toolbox at an early stage in their career that will serve them well in the multi crew environment.
Last edited by #1AHRS; 21st Nov 2002 at 01:12.
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1Ahrs. Your statement that a monkey can be trained to fly IFR,and then leading to CRM being the answer. I would have interpreted that statement to have meant that you can train two monkeys to fly IFR together as long as they are polite to each other. Your statements have some truth, but only some, and I speak from SPIFR ops from the 60s, before Eagle Airways was even thought of. There are horses for courses, each operator requires different talents from their crews, and SPIFR operations are not able to undertaken by all, personally myself I have tried multi crew positions and have found that after single pilot ops where one ca
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Prospector: I found your reply quite confusing, and having sent it without finishing it, it sort of leads to a dead-end, so to speak, as to what exactly you were trying to get across.
CRM is a whole lot more than just two pilots talking to each other, and not everyone is very good at it. This includes some instructors (who are damned hopeless at their jobs as an instructor, even if they are good pilots, mainly because not everyone can break tasks down easily enable to teach them) and alot of pilots who have SPIFR time. They get so used to flying on their own and making their own decisions that they have huge problems including another pilot in the whole decision making process. Alot of them also have problems following SOP's because they have been flying in dodgy situations where they did whatever they wanted. I personally think that #1AHRS has a valid point, although one must be careful not to broadbrush all SPIFR and/or instructors with the same tar.
Maybe the problem Prospector, is the fact that the industry has developed (for the better, hopefully) and become more safety conscious and possibly left you behind, hence your discomfort at multi-crew situations. Those who have only been in the game for a few years are more capable of adapting to new situations and requriements of airlines. Just a thought......
CRM is a whole lot more than just two pilots talking to each other, and not everyone is very good at it. This includes some instructors (who are damned hopeless at their jobs as an instructor, even if they are good pilots, mainly because not everyone can break tasks down easily enable to teach them) and alot of pilots who have SPIFR time. They get so used to flying on their own and making their own decisions that they have huge problems including another pilot in the whole decision making process. Alot of them also have problems following SOP's because they have been flying in dodgy situations where they did whatever they wanted. I personally think that #1AHRS has a valid point, although one must be careful not to broadbrush all SPIFR and/or instructors with the same tar.
Maybe the problem Prospector, is the fact that the industry has developed (for the better, hopefully) and become more safety conscious and possibly left you behind, hence your discomfort at multi-crew situations. Those who have only been in the game for a few years are more capable of adapting to new situations and requriements of airlines. Just a thought......
So what everyone is saying is that if someone had an instructors rating AND experience SPIFR they would be the perfect candidate for the likes of Eagle? funny that most pilots SPIFR are current or past instructors.
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frf
i think eagle will take you if you have the following:
work for ardmore flying school
have a cpl with 80 hr or less of multi time P in C
work for ardmore flying school
have around 2000 hours tt
work for ardmore flying school
have a big smile on your face
work for ardmore flying school
now from memory you and i don't have the above so i'll see you in the pub for a pint next time i'm in town
i think eagle will take you if you have the following:
work for ardmore flying school
have a cpl with 80 hr or less of multi time P in C
work for ardmore flying school
have around 2000 hours tt
work for ardmore flying school
have a big smile on your face
work for ardmore flying school
now from memory you and i don't have the above so i'll see you in the pub for a pint next time i'm in town