Meloz and 89
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Dogi 1647 total at the start.
347 scabbed (about 22%), of which about HALF (of this number) "went back" during a 10 day period over Xmas-New Year '89-'90.
1300 did NOT!
By ANY stretch of the imagination, pilots at that time could never have been called staunch unionists - as a matter of FACT (something that apparently eludes the 22% when they recount THEIR version of events), most pilots only thought about the AFAP in terms of the cover they provided for "Loss of Licence" insurance.
347 scabbed (about 22%), of which about HALF (of this number) "went back" during a 10 day period over Xmas-New Year '89-'90.
1300 did NOT!
By ANY stretch of the imagination, pilots at that time could never have been called staunch unionists - as a matter of FACT (something that apparently eludes the 22% when they recount THEIR version of events), most pilots only thought about the AFAP in terms of the cover they provided for "Loss of Licence" insurance.
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Nice post 410.
I had nothing to do with the pilot's strike in '89. My comments were those of a moderate aussie pilot (non scab who we shall name "Bob")that worked here until recently. we shared many beers at the Dilmun Club and Sherlock Holmes bar, you could say, as only you aussies can - we were great mates! He was very bitter about the strike, but his anger was directed more at the main players rather than the rank and file. Bob regarded Hawke, Abels and McCarthy as extreme egotists and all with their own political agenda.
Bob was very annoyed with this. He would say "you never go into battle without an escape route". There never was a back door for the AFAP,due mainly to McCarthy's incredible arrogance and confidence of an AFAP win. The tactics used against the pilots were despicable and unprecedented, no one can deny this, however, when you are taking on a government, big business, the union movement and the general working public of australia (who were all bound by this accord) you must expect the unexpected. Bob criticised the decision of the AFAP to continue their futile campaign when it was clear to everyone that the companies were never going to negotiate and were (be it very slowly) rebuilding the airlines with foreigners,new joiners and returnees. Bob never had a bad word to say about anyone, but bring up the names Hawke, Abels and McCarthy and......well,it was entertaining.
He never blamed the blokes that went back after the war was lost - October, I think and reckoned he wouldn't give a ***** about being called a scab,"A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" he would always say. when I asked him why HE never returned he just replied "I wouldn't work for a prick like Abels, couldn't stand being associated in a union with B.McCarthy in charge and wouold probably punch Bob Hawke in the mouth if I stayed in Australia much longer. That was Bob.
I shall be returning to the UK soon to fly for Virgin Atlantic. I just hope, during my career, I never have to go through what you aussies did in 1989.
I had nothing to do with the pilot's strike in '89. My comments were those of a moderate aussie pilot (non scab who we shall name "Bob")that worked here until recently. we shared many beers at the Dilmun Club and Sherlock Holmes bar, you could say, as only you aussies can - we were great mates! He was very bitter about the strike, but his anger was directed more at the main players rather than the rank and file. Bob regarded Hawke, Abels and McCarthy as extreme egotists and all with their own political agenda.
He made the classic mistake of not giving himself (and us!) a way out when he lay the gauntlet down.
He never blamed the blokes that went back after the war was lost - October, I think and reckoned he wouldn't give a ***** about being called a scab,"A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" he would always say. when I asked him why HE never returned he just replied "I wouldn't work for a prick like Abels, couldn't stand being associated in a union with B.McCarthy in charge and wouold probably punch Bob Hawke in the mouth if I stayed in Australia much longer. That was Bob.
I shall be returning to the UK soon to fly for Virgin Atlantic. I just hope, during my career, I never have to go through what you aussies did in 1989.
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Fleas eh? 
. For your information just about all AN FOs knew who was who and who did what, on both sides. My point has always been that there was bad behaviour on both sides. My point is that it is immoral and irrational to deny employment opportunities to people who are utterly innocent parties to the dispute. It amazes me that although I have previously related the stories of being attacked fro behind by an AFAP member in a terminal and of my workmate having his car booby trapped, NOT ONE of your mates or YOU has EVER acknowledged the despicable and pathetic action of these people. How dare these people behave so reprehensivley. I mean it was pretty obvious we were GA. It makes about as much sense as going out shooting the nearest Leb because of Sept. 11. (By the M, I run a business now and make about as much as I did at Ansett. So sorry to disappoint you 
)( Oh yes, and my business owns an aeroplane too!
)
. For your information just about all AN FOs knew who was who and who did what, on both sides. My point has always been that there was bad behaviour on both sides. My point is that it is immoral and irrational to deny employment opportunities to people who are utterly innocent parties to the dispute. It amazes me that although I have previously related the stories of being attacked fro behind by an AFAP member in a terminal and of my workmate having his car booby trapped, NOT ONE of your mates or YOU has EVER acknowledged the despicable and pathetic action of these people. How dare these people behave so reprehensivley. I mean it was pretty obvious we were GA. It makes about as much sense as going out shooting the nearest Leb because of Sept. 11. (By the M, I run a business now and make about as much as I did at Ansett. So sorry to disappoint you )( Oh yes, and my business owns an aeroplane too! )
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If any of the protagonists here think that '89 is now merely a historical event, with the details the subject of academic debate, they should take look a the **** going down at TransAustralian Air Express. And this one wasn't started by the '89 ers.............................
BTW Did anyone there get paid yesterday?
BTW Did anyone there get paid yesterday?
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Steady lads. STEADY!!!!!
We may not like or certainly agree with our "South Island" friend or the "Wizz" but lets not call them names.
It's not worth the "LOCK" for a radical or two who has those sort of views.
This is probably running the course of all these things as they do, but as to a few of us preventing others from working in or around a particular location in the world, all of us have the RIGHT when ASKED if we would/could or not work with people and we have the RIGHT to an opinion.
SO IT HAS BEEN, SO IT IS AND SO IT SHALL BE.
I don't now, like some people who were my friends. They made sure I and my Family were dissadvantaged and descriminated against BIG TIME, I can now surely be selective if ASKED, with whom I associate and if possible work next to in my Airline, as others appear to be also.
That is not vindictive, it's my "space" and if I can partially influence who enters it, I will exercise that Privilage.
And Again Lads/Lasses STEADY STEADY
We may not like or certainly agree with our "South Island" friend or the "Wizz" but lets not call them names.
It's not worth the "LOCK" for a radical or two who has those sort of views.
This is probably running the course of all these things as they do, but as to a few of us preventing others from working in or around a particular location in the world, all of us have the RIGHT when ASKED if we would/could or not work with people and we have the RIGHT to an opinion.
SO IT HAS BEEN, SO IT IS AND SO IT SHALL BE.
I don't now, like some people who were my friends. They made sure I and my Family were dissadvantaged and descriminated against BIG TIME, I can now surely be selective if ASKED, with whom I associate and if possible work next to in my Airline, as others appear to be also.
That is not vindictive, it's my "space" and if I can partially influence who enters it, I will exercise that Privilage.
And Again Lads/Lasses STEADY STEADY
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Ahhh...another day on "standby" = another day on PPRuNe 
ANFO - the "bad behaviour" from the non-scab side was done INDIVIDUALLY, was NOT in any way condoned by the AFAP - and as a matter of FACT was deplored by Brian McCarthy and the AFAP Executive! Nonetheless, pilots could see that their LIVELIHOODS ie. something that they had spent their entire LIFE working towards, was being THREATENED, and pilots = being of the nature they are - are not usually the type who will stand passively and inactively by, if they can see an alternative.
Similarly, pilots are (psychologically) averse to accepting a domineering, over-riding, authoritarian rule.
Personally I think (that) you over-dramatise matters by describing;
as
So ANFO, being an experienced combatant at the time,
..how did YOU come to put yourself in a position where you were in THE MIDDLE of what was an OBVIOUS "Hornets' Nest" = a picket line of protesting pilots. (I think I still have that sequence on a video tape, if it was the one at SYD airport, and I know who the guy [Hi Tom] was who tapped one of the "apparent" walk through scab pilots!).
You MUST have been aware of the "heat" at the time, and the OBVIOUS taunt that you, and the others, presented.
Methinks thou doth protest too loudly, ANFO!
Where's the flea powder?
BTW, "Congratulations on your successful (security) business", ANFO!
ANFO - the "bad behaviour" from the non-scab side was done INDIVIDUALLY, was NOT in any way condoned by the AFAP - and as a matter of FACT was deplored by Brian McCarthy and the AFAP Executive! Nonetheless, pilots could see that their LIVELIHOODS ie. something that they had spent their entire LIFE working towards, was being THREATENED, and pilots = being of the nature they are - are not usually the type who will stand passively and inactively by, if they can see an alternative.
Similarly, pilots are (psychologically) averse to accepting a domineering, over-riding, authoritarian rule.
Personally I think (that) you over-dramatise matters by describing;
Another pilot at my company had a mix of dog sh!t and broken glass placed under the door handle of his car.
having his car booby trapped
At the time , I was doing full contact sparing 3 nights/week;
You MUST have been aware of the "heat" at the time, and the OBVIOUS taunt that you, and the others, presented.
Methinks thou doth protest too loudly, ANFO!
Where's the flea powder?
BTW, "Congratulations on your successful (security) business", ANFO!
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dreamin, aka Vee Chee, relax son. I'm sure the lads down at Trans air Express can take care of themselves and I have it on good authority there are no 89 problems there!
Give my regards to Ian, we were great pals in SQ.
Wizofoz, you owe Kaptin M an apology!
chin, chin.
Sir Richard II
Give my regards to Ian, we were great pals in SQ.
Wizofoz, you owe Kaptin M an apology!
chin, chin.
Sir Richard II
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Kapn M, Chris t , I think your comments are a bit rich arent they? Booby trapped, YES! Workmates fingers lacerated and infected:not nice! How dare you have the cheek to trivialise such bastardry! As you said I "was in the middle of things". Sure, I was in the middle of minding my own business at work. If you really want to know, I was on my way to get a coffee and a donut between flights. Have you got some mental image that I went up to a picket line blowing rasberries? Get real. Some nasty pasties in the AFAP ranks don't deny it! You probably even think that I recon you're all a bunch of bastards who deserve what ya got. Not true. I was, like most of my collegues in GA at the time, quite sympathetic to AFAP although we were quite aware of certain instances of hypocracy on the part of the 'Feds. Interestingly, you said that AFAP didn't condone bad behaviour. But you haven't said that YOU didn't. I sincerly would like to think that this is the case. Here's your big chance to say. 'Yeah, whoever did that must have been a real Pr!ck'. Personally Kapn I hold nothing against you. I am a bit troubled that yourself and some others have slung off at people who have done you absolutely no harm. Like me. I really wish that you guys get some perspective and take a bloody good look at yourselves. If you're going to discriminate against those who have wronged you fine. Aim your invective at them, not those who were on the sidelines. Fair enough? (PS Dont believe anything that JL said . We didn't!)
(PS Dont believe anything that JL said . We didn't!)
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ANFO, back up a yard or so, if as you say you were on the sidelines, walking through a picket line means you had become a player.
AN security and the duty airport manager prevented me from entering the then briefing offices in the course of legitimate employment, as you were, at a major airport at the height of the unpleasantness.
You were lucky on the world stage of picket crossers as some of the New York bus drivers I think got a round or two from a 12 gauge to think about???!!!
As to your doggie dodo unfortunate friend, give a thought or two that he/she may have had more "Non Friends" than the Pilots as "listees" were not many peoples cups of tea in many industries or sections of society.
As to the " not me" that you seem to require from individuals on the board, when the Listees, all 347, say sorry, you might be in with a ghost of a chance, but then Hell is not scheduled to freeze over as I am aware.
As I said a few hours ago, STEADY ON, Woomera has given us a really fair go here.
If it's your aim to shut this one down, have the gutz to say so, kitchens are hot places some times.
AN security and the duty airport manager prevented me from entering the then briefing offices in the course of legitimate employment, as you were, at a major airport at the height of the unpleasantness.
You were lucky on the world stage of picket crossers as some of the New York bus drivers I think got a round or two from a 12 gauge to think about???!!!
As to your doggie dodo unfortunate friend, give a thought or two that he/she may have had more "Non Friends" than the Pilots as "listees" were not many peoples cups of tea in many industries or sections of society.
As to the " not me" that you seem to require from individuals on the board, when the Listees, all 347, say sorry, you might be in with a ghost of a chance, but then Hell is not scheduled to freeze over as I am aware.
As I said a few hours ago, STEADY ON, Woomera has given us a really fair go here.
If it's your aim to shut this one down, have the gutz to say so, kitchens are hot places some times.
short flights long nights
Well said Greybeard. When the air gets ruff and that old (what was it?) gets tuff, I still remember the things you taught me many years ago. 1. When in doubt,pause for thought. 2.State your case clearly, without abuse, not matter how angry you are. 3.Accept the things you cannot change 4. NEVER let down your mates.As I said a little while ago, so far we have avoided a lock, please keep it nice everyone so we can continue.
I am going to reply to ANFO shortly, but first, as GB taught me, I will pause for thought.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Confessions
Okay ANFO, I for one am not entirely innocent of some of the "goings on" that apparently prick the consciences of those who willingly SOLD theirs'.
I admit to:
Actively particicpating in airport demonstrations;
Allowing my family to come with me - but NOT making them;
Handing out brochures eg "Welcome aboard. You are about to fly with a scab pilot" in an attempt to get OUR point of view across to a public who were fed by the Murdoch-owned media;
Making 'phone calls to "men" whom I had thought were friends (or at least, familiar acquaintances at work) when I had heard they had scabbed, to ask them to reconsider - but in almost 100% of the cases, they never had the intestinal fortitude to speak to me - leaving answering machine messages unreturned, or wives to cover up;
Demonstrating publically against Hawke for the abuse of power he used, and his GROSS INABILITY to resolve the dispute by MEDIATION, but rather further INFLAME MATTERS by his abrasive, aggressive remarks;
Iadmit to ALL of the above, because I valued the job I had, and I valued Australian democracy - the supposed right that we ALL have to freely express our opinions within a legal framework.
I also admit that I did NOT make any death threats - nor am I aware of ANYONE who might have or did - except for people associated with organised crime, and there are 3 who immediately come to mind...David Jull mentions 2 of them, and the 3rd was a common link!
I admit that I HEARD about 1 or 2 instances of "returnees" being hassled (and really that is ALL it was) at work....one example was of Captain Lightfingers having a plate of mashed potato, with the word "SCAB" drawn in it, pushed under his nose at the staff canteen.
As greybeard commented, "Pilots as "listees" were not many peoples cups of tea in many industries or sections of society." ..let alone within their own company!
In REALITY most of the actions taken against the scabs was sensationalist at best, (eg. the painting of "SCAB" on fences....no, I didn't do that either ) and caused no personal physical harm.
Think what YOUR job at Ansett meant to YOU, ANFO - how hard you had worked to achieve it, how hard you worked to maintain it, how much you valued it. And what YOU would do to protect it, if you thought that someone was trying to steal it away from you. In fact, Dick Smith made what I felt to be a very good analogy on a "Good Morning Australia" programme at the time - he likened the dispute between the AFAP pilots and the airlines to a disagreement between a long married couple...something that happens from time to time, but is always finally resolved. However the intervention of other parties was neither needed, wanted, nor beneficial in obtaining a SATISFACTORY SOLUTION, and only widened the gap between the two, resulting in the 3rd parties being despised by ALL involved.
Okay ANFO, I for one am not entirely innocent of some of the "goings on" that apparently prick the consciences of those who willingly SOLD theirs'.
I admit to:
Actively particicpating in airport demonstrations;
Allowing my family to come with me - but NOT making them;
Handing out brochures eg "Welcome aboard. You are about to fly with a scab pilot" in an attempt to get OUR point of view across to a public who were fed by the Murdoch-owned media;
Making 'phone calls to "men" whom I had thought were friends (or at least, familiar acquaintances at work) when I had heard they had scabbed, to ask them to reconsider - but in almost 100% of the cases, they never had the intestinal fortitude to speak to me - leaving answering machine messages unreturned, or wives to cover up;
Demonstrating publically against Hawke for the abuse of power he used, and his GROSS INABILITY to resolve the dispute by MEDIATION, but rather further INFLAME MATTERS by his abrasive, aggressive remarks;
Iadmit to ALL of the above, because I valued the job I had, and I valued Australian democracy - the supposed right that we ALL have to freely express our opinions within a legal framework.
I also admit that I did NOT make any death threats - nor am I aware of ANYONE who might have or did - except for people associated with organised crime, and there are 3 who immediately come to mind...David Jull mentions 2 of them, and the 3rd was a common link!
I admit that I HEARD about 1 or 2 instances of "returnees" being hassled (and really that is ALL it was) at work....one example was of Captain Lightfingers having a plate of mashed potato, with the word "SCAB" drawn in it, pushed under his nose at the staff canteen.
As greybeard commented, "Pilots as "listees" were not many peoples cups of tea in many industries or sections of society." ..let alone within their own company!
In REALITY most of the actions taken against the scabs was sensationalist at best, (eg. the painting of "SCAB" on fences....no, I didn't do that either
) and caused no personal physical harm. Think what YOUR job at Ansett meant to YOU, ANFO - how hard you had worked to achieve it, how hard you worked to maintain it, how much you valued it. And what YOU would do to protect it, if you thought that someone was trying to steal it away from you. In fact, Dick Smith made what I felt to be a very good analogy on a "Good Morning Australia" programme at the time - he likened the dispute between the AFAP pilots and the airlines to a disagreement between a long married couple...something that happens from time to time, but is always finally resolved. However the intervention of other parties was neither needed, wanted, nor beneficial in obtaining a SATISFACTORY SOLUTION, and only widened the gap between the two, resulting in the 3rd parties being despised by ALL involved.
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Woomera, leave this alone. We are finally getting somewhere.
Thanks for your post M, I did apprieciate it. Your activities: 1)peaceful(perhaps vocal!) demonstration, non-abusive phone calls, passing out pamphlets....Yep. All fair enough. The story about the mash potato raised a chuckle; I hadn't heard that one. My real beef here with you and some others is this; 1) I copped a whole lot of flack some time ago when I said that some returnees had my respect because I thought they had the guts to go back under circumstance of huge pressure. I still think this way. An analogy; My eldest daughter used to hang out with a bunch of other blond-blue-eyed pretty girls at school.(she takes after Mom here). Actually, they where a real bunch of 'Heathers'. The ring leader was a very charismatic kid. This little gang started giving another girl at school a real hard time. Nasty bullying stuff. My daughter dug her heels in and told the ring leader to leave this poor kid alone. The Ring leader said to my daughter "What, you're not friends with Fat Charlotte now, are you?" To which my daughter said "well OK , I choose her over you". My daughter lost all her 'friends' over this but won my undying admiration for having the guts to stand up for what she thought was right under enormous peer pressure. I hold those who DID and DIDN't go back to the companies for the same reason in similar high esteem. 2) I copped flack because I joined AN in late '90. I wasn't my fault that the dispute occured, nor was it the fault of the dozens of others who joined on late '90,91 or 92. At the time that we applied ,were interviewed and offered employment at the airlines, there were no employment bans in force and the companies had made it clear that they were'nt going to reemploy any pre-loved Pilots (the so called dirty dozen were an exception here). What were we supposed to do ? Knock back a job which was legitimately offered? Yet despite this companies such as Virgin and Emirates have an element of '89ers who are actively preventing the employment of those whowere quite simply NOT involved.. I think this sucks. If they are going to discriminate, at least they should have a reasonable basis for doing so; not just say, "Oh , they worked for Ansett, so they must be S78bs". I am aware of quite a number of ex-AN FOs who travelled to Emirates for interviews after the Great Collapse, spending $5000 on airfares for them and spouse, when all along certain ex AFAP guys had no intention of seeing them employed. 3) Many in this group are demonstrably NOT SC#BS, During the AN NZ Pilots lockout a number of senior AN FOs were offered 146 commands in Auckland and $10000US per month, A320 commands on return. All declined. In many ways, it doesn't matter to me in the long run. I am not longer in the airline industry. However, I resent the injustice that I and many others have suffered by the AFAP group here, on the line whilst with AN and in the current employment market.
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TransAustralian Air Express
Thanks Dick. I’m always relaxed. I hope you’re right and the boys come through OK.
If you haven’t spoken to your ‘good authority’ since 19 August, get an update. Major differences since then. Evolving on almost a daily basis. Very unpleasant situation!
IMHO Late pays in an established organisation usually mean only one thing!
If you haven’t spoken to your ‘good authority’ since 19 August, get an update. Major differences since then. Evolving on almost a daily basis. Very unpleasant situation!
IMHO Late pays in an established organisation usually mean only one thing!
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Yes it does ANFO, having wittnessed similar treatment by the US side of the union scene ALPO...they are concerned with only one thing....me...me...me....sad lot really....
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ANFO, now your flag is a little further up the mast, we can see more clearly the colours on it.
Late '90 joiner, OK, legal to apply and to accept employment.
How would you have felt if you were a "Pre-Loved" pilot still out of work, more than likely better operationally qualified than the "joiner"?
I was at that time, 11,500 hrs, 4000 Jet command, training etc, etc.
I could be excused for calling you a suedo "listee".
You were happy to join a Company, which was practicing a blatant and offensive to most, discriminatory hiring processes. A Company with a fractionalised and disorganised operational work force, many people in new and difficult positions of power and vindictiveness, with some very new and untried training/checking personnel in some areas.
Did you mind doing that action, did you feel any moral difficulties with that process?
Time and a lot of water have passed under the bridges since 1990, your choice of employer has gone the way of many such employers.
You were part of the demise.
You took the greatly inflated pay, the legitimate job of some "pre-loved" pilot, the rest is history.
The employment list at the Emirates is about 3000 long, a 10th of that number may get a job, mostly those with command jet time, so the numbers may be the culprit in many cases.
I find it interesting you would join because of and under the protection of blatent discrimination, but object to any thought that it may, in a minor individual form, still exist.
Being out of work is no joy, I have that T-shirt and the cap that goes with it.
Look on the bright side, no death threats, no doggy dodo on the door handle, no Listee patrols, you got the easy road, my son, the easy road by far.
Some of the people on or near the list may feel hard done by the system, even may be semi-innocent victims, but it's a bit like being slightly pregnant, it shows in time. The facts are for all to see and I wonder at the enormity of the errors, duplicity, selective memories and sheer bastardry of past events, which not then, not now or in the future will be totally forgotten or in any way forgiven.
I find it interesting that you admire your daughter for the very principles we adhered to, but could appear to have double standards in your application of similar ideals
You got on the wrong horse, Sunshine, it shed its shoes, went lame and got put down.
Late '90 joiner, OK, legal to apply and to accept employment.
How would you have felt if you were a "Pre-Loved" pilot still out of work, more than likely better operationally qualified than the "joiner"?
I was at that time, 11,500 hrs, 4000 Jet command, training etc, etc.
I could be excused for calling you a suedo "listee".
You were happy to join a Company, which was practicing a blatant and offensive to most, discriminatory hiring processes. A Company with a fractionalised and disorganised operational work force, many people in new and difficult positions of power and vindictiveness, with some very new and untried training/checking personnel in some areas.
Did you mind doing that action, did you feel any moral difficulties with that process?
Time and a lot of water have passed under the bridges since 1990, your choice of employer has gone the way of many such employers.
You were part of the demise.
You took the greatly inflated pay, the legitimate job of some "pre-loved" pilot, the rest is history.
The employment list at the Emirates is about 3000 long, a 10th of that number may get a job, mostly those with command jet time, so the numbers may be the culprit in many cases.
I find it interesting you would join because of and under the protection of blatent discrimination, but object to any thought that it may, in a minor individual form, still exist.
Being out of work is no joy, I have that T-shirt and the cap that goes with it.
Look on the bright side, no death threats, no doggy dodo on the door handle, no Listee patrols, you got the easy road, my son, the easy road by far.
Some of the people on or near the list may feel hard done by the system, even may be semi-innocent victims, but it's a bit like being slightly pregnant, it shows in time. The facts are for all to see and I wonder at the enormity of the errors, duplicity, selective memories and sheer bastardry of past events, which not then, not now or in the future will be totally forgotten or in any way forgiven.
I find it interesting that you admire your daughter for the very principles we adhered to, but could appear to have double standards in your application of similar ideals
You got on the wrong horse, Sunshine, it shed its shoes, went lame and got put down.
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Kaptin M:
Don't insult our collective intelligence. Are you trying to paint yourself as the "gentleman activist/protester"?
"Oh, I did make a few cowardly, late-night, abusive, anonymous phone calls but it was ONLY LIGHT-HEARTED!!! Jokes, Mate, just jokes!"
Once again, puh-LEASE... I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read that bit. PLEASE DON'T GIVE US THAT ABSOLUTE CRAP. Why can't you just admit you did it all because you wanted to win, you didn't want to have to leave for an overseas job (both good reasons) and because you were GREEDY. It was about MONEY. Admit it. Be a man.
Do you really expect us to believe mashed potato is the worst thing you did or heard of being done to a scab? Apart from THREE out of 1350-odd pilots? Yeah. RI-IIIIIIGHT.
"men", you say, in quotes to denigrate scabs' manliness but anonymous phone calls of that nature are one of the least "manly" things I can think of.
As for "3-4 times the income", are you talking $400 000 p.a.? Give me a break!! Now you ARE talking absolute crap. I'm sorry, but you are.
Oddly, I DO believe your protestation that you didn't paint "SCAB" on fences. I guess you couldn't be everywhere at once.
greybeard: Perhaps you could only call ANFO that if he was covered in a fine, velvet-like (pseudo) leather. (Such as suede.)
I for one am not entirely innocent of some of the "goings on"
"Oh, I did make a few cowardly, late-night, abusive, anonymous phone calls but it was ONLY LIGHT-HEARTED!!! Jokes, Mate, just jokes!"
...I valued ... democracy ...supposed right...freely express...legal framework.
Do you really expect us to believe mashed potato is the worst thing you did or heard of being done to a scab? Apart from THREE out of 1350-odd pilots? Yeah. RI-IIIIIIGHT.
"men", you say, in quotes to denigrate scabs' manliness but anonymous phone calls of that nature are one of the least "manly" things I can think of.
As for "3-4 times the income", are you talking $400 000 p.a.? Give me a break!! Now you ARE talking absolute crap. I'm sorry, but you are.
Oddly, I DO believe your protestation that you didn't paint "SCAB" on fences. I guess you couldn't be everywhere at once.
greybeard: Perhaps you could only call ANFO that if he was covered in a fine, velvet-like (pseudo) leather. (Such as suede.)
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No, you would NOT be excused for calling me or any of my contemporaries a "psuedo listee". I fail to see any double standard, either, simply because the fight was between YOU and the Companies not ME and the Companies. Not only that, but I never said that it wasn't unfair that the 'Feds weren't re-employed. They should have been and I think that my contemporaries would largely agree. But for myself and the many, many others who joined during this period, it would have been utterly futile to not accept an offer. Because their mass re-employment was never, ever going to happen. The way I see it, AFAP picked a fight with the biggest bully at school, got its collective head punched in, then blamed the world for not jumping in and helping. Dont blame those on the side lines for your own mistake, sunshine. It is not a measure of a man by which I am impressed.
Last edited by ANFO; 12th Sep 2002 at 09:11.
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sightboard run, in answer to your question on page 4: (“You put "unqualified" in bold, as if to indicate you thought this more likely than "unwilling". Why? How were these pilots qualified to fly in Australia but not in Europe?”)
I mentioned this because I went to the U.S. to get a US ATR in 1990 and switched to a second school after completing the ground subjects at the first. The Chief Instructor at the first school was not a happy camper when I informed him I wouldn’t be spending some thousands of dollars with him on a (to me, useless) Citation conversion for my licence issue because the second school made me a far better offer using a 737 sim. Rather bitterly, he informed me that the school I was going to had made a fortune over the last six months giving quickie 737 ratings to non-rated pilots who then went to Australia to take up commands with AN and TN.
Please let me stress that I have no way of knowing if what he said was true, but if it was, some – (according to him, quite a number) – of the ‘experienced captains’ from overseas that AN and TN employed were in fact first officers who obtained command ratings on the 737 only immediately before moving to Australia.
If what he said was in fact true, there is no way the Australian companies would not been aware of this unless all these individuals falsified their log books so well that the companies did not pick the fact up, which I find rather hard to accept. This seems incredible, but to lend some credence to it, the story of the American who was accepted by AN even thought he couldn’t furnish them with a log book “because it was classified” it is quite well known, and I understand has been confirmed by pilots within the post 89 AN. (The person said he had flown for the CIA and so couldn’t show them his log book.)
Hope that clarifies my comment.
I mentioned this because I went to the U.S. to get a US ATR in 1990 and switched to a second school after completing the ground subjects at the first. The Chief Instructor at the first school was not a happy camper when I informed him I wouldn’t be spending some thousands of dollars with him on a (to me, useless) Citation conversion for my licence issue because the second school made me a far better offer using a 737 sim. Rather bitterly, he informed me that the school I was going to had made a fortune over the last six months giving quickie 737 ratings to non-rated pilots who then went to Australia to take up commands with AN and TN.
Please let me stress that I have no way of knowing if what he said was true, but if it was, some – (according to him, quite a number) – of the ‘experienced captains’ from overseas that AN and TN employed were in fact first officers who obtained command ratings on the 737 only immediately before moving to Australia.
If what he said was in fact true, there is no way the Australian companies would not been aware of this unless all these individuals falsified their log books so well that the companies did not pick the fact up, which I find rather hard to accept. This seems incredible, but to lend some credence to it, the story of the American who was accepted by AN even thought he couldn’t furnish them with a log book “because it was classified” it is quite well known, and I understand has been confirmed by pilots within the post 89 AN. (The person said he had flown for the CIA and so couldn’t show them his log book.)
Hope that clarifies my comment.
