LATAM upset SYD-AKL Mon 11 Mar

[Mr Albert Ross]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

Well incidents like this one will only strengthen the hand of investigators who do want them.

Maybe. Maybe not. I suspect from what I have heard that there is already enough information from this incident.

Originally Posted by Lookleft

You don't think that CVRs and FDRs were once considered a step far, far too far?

Without proper control, yes. However, I have always been happy that any of the FDR and CVR information on aeroplanes that I have flown would always be properly handled. The Accident Investigators that would have dealt with it would never have made any actual CVR recordings available to the public and only transcripts of the very relevant parts of the recordings pertinent to an actual incident would ever be made public in the incident report. (The Union involved in the very early days ensured that this would be the case and the Accident Investigators are honouring that.) I don't see how that can be met with video recordings. (How do you get a 'transcript' of a video recording, etc.?) I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying that it will be a lot more difficult to gain acceptance. Especially keeping irrelevant bits away from the idiot public and idiot media. And having seen some of the comments that are on here reinforces my opinions in my previous sentence.

[Lookleft]

You hear far, far too many recordings/transcripts from CVRs being broadcast far too widely after an incident where those who don't have a clue (many on here, sadly!) focus on the irrelevant because it is 'sensational' rather then relevant.

​​​​​​​However, I have always been happy that any of the FDR and CVR information on aeroplanes that I have flown would always be properly handled.

I'm not sure you can be certain of the second statement in light of your first one! If you happen to have an accident somewhere that doesn't have the same protocols around protection of the CVR and FDR then you might very well find the recording of your flight being broadcast far too widely.

How do you cope with LOSA? How do you cope with a QAR. It also has strict protocols around it yet crew can agree to have a person sitting in the jumps seat recording everything pertinent to the flight. A video camera is just a digital LOSA auditor. Cockpit video cameras would have to have the same protocols around them as CVR and FDR. CCTV is a lot more prevalent than most people realise and are used to help solve crimes as a silent witness. Cockpit Video Cameras can be set up so they don't record faces but can record actions and the instrument panel. They can be an additional tool for safety investigators to give a better picture (a metaphor and a fact) of what led to an accident or incident.

[Mr Albert Ross]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

I'm not sure you can be certain of the second statement in light of your first one! If you happen to have an accident somewhere that doesn't have the same protocols around protection of the CVR and FDR then you might very well find the recording of your flight being broadcast far too widely.

I never flew to such places.

Originally Posted by Lookleft

... yet crew can agree to have a person sitting in the jumps seat recording everything pertinent to the flight.

And a crew can say "No, don't."

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

How do you cope with LOSA? How do you cope with a QAR. It also has strict protocols around it yet crew can agree to have a person sitting in the jumps seat recording everything pertinent to the flight.

LOSA reports are strictly controlled, de-identified reports that, if the pilot details were leaked, would land the leaker and the SMS as a whole in very hot water. So unless cockpit video were afforded the same protections as the CVR, it's a no go from me. Until of course they put OVRs and videos in the bosses office...

Interestingly, in the 737 Freighter ditching, the NTSB published everything that was said by each pilot from before start until the crash. And I mean Everything.

[Lookleft]

So unless cockpit video were afforded the same protections as the CVR, it's a no go from me.

Why do pilots think that a Cockpit Video recorder would not be given the same protections as all other recording devices including LOSA? Yet as I mentioned there are plenty of pilots who are more than happy to post their latest landing onto social media. I am sure there are also tens of thousands of video images recorded on Ipads that are not posted to social media. Look at the video image taken by the pax onboard the Sea World collision. Because there are no rules around personal footage taken onboard an aircraft then its immediately available for the media. Any protocols and rules for properly installed cameras could be extended to other recording devices taken inside an aircraft, possibly through changes to annex 13. The 737 rudder hardover crashes have never been properly solved, cameras onboard may have shed a bit more light on it. The Max accidents would definitely have benefited from cameras, at least to have protected the crews from accusations of not following proper procedures. Cockpit cameras are just the logical evolution from CVR and 4 channel FDR, to longer recording FDR to QAR and LOSA. The case against cockpit cameras dissipates every time a new video of a landing is posted. Overtime, just like the presence of the QAR, pilots will just forget they are there.

[RubberDogPoop]

Had to laugh…

Originally Posted by Lookleft

The Max accidents would definitely have benefited from cameras, at least to have protected the crews from accusations of not following proper procedures.

??? They didn’t follow proper procedures🤷🏻‍♂️

[lucille]

Not all countries have laws which protect freedom of speech and privacy. What protections do pilots in these countries have that CVR recordings are not downloaded unofficially? The presumption of altruism on the part of airline management is misplaced.

What next, video cameras in the toilets to monitor possible nefarious activities which may have an impact on safety?

[Lookleft]

They didn’t follow proper procedures

And what were the MCAS specific procedures that they had been instructed in and trained for that you are referring to? Or are you referring to the procedures that Boeing carried over from the previous series of 737 ( all the way back to the 1960's) that were not fitted with MCAS?