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Old 16th Jul 2023, 01:13
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by farrari
The last VA EBA was a shocker, near 20 % pay cut along with other terrible conditions.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ÖÖÖ
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said donít put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.
I was made redundant from the WB group. For your comment about the AFAP wanting us back!!! It was in our EBA the one our group voted for, the WB folks...The narrow body guys voted the new agreement in...Not the returnees, I sense a little cyclical argument from you about the returnees, for one, how the whole group of Pilots in the WB/Regional/Tiger were treated from the union was shocking, I will never return the weak AFAP union again. Would you like a redundant clause early in your career, we all just cannot pack up and leave the country....
I agree with the Japan flying(should have been better handled by unions and pilots), but from noting who is flying those sectors are the ones with the biggest voices in the crew room to the flight deck about conditions EBA blah blah, are the ones flying the 8hour red eye home, have not seen a WB pilot yet do it.
Mate stand up and start picketing at Head office about the state of the conditions in person, what have you got to loose? 50years of experience should have taught you this medium here or in the flight deck isn't where you get results.
As for O/T and drafts, some of us lost our jobs, kids in school and all those life commitments(house etc) and not at end of careers with savings goals completed. Cost of living is out of control, we have to survive and work, not agreeing the current terms which I didn't vote in is great, but we all have had to make some sort of adjustment during our careers to fix the broken situations.

Lead the group mate, Im ready to fight for an agreement, we need a strong leader like you that has the guts to start an argument on PPRUNE about pilots.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 01:46
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
Pilots donít stand together end of, there is always an element who will sell the rest down the river for a better opportunity or bigger plane.
Bingo. In a previous employer I overheard one executive laugh off Ďletís just watch all these pilots screw each other over againí. The funny thing is, we did.

Iíd really like to see the Virgin group to show us others how itís done. I mean, what do you have to lose? American PE owners. They give zero fckus about you and I hope you also give zero fckus about them. Those Management pilots sucking off the Bain toes, wake the f up. Your Executive team will soon be sharing in a prize pool north of $100m. They and the Americans, will soon be out the door.

Your first challenge is to reinstate base pay. Not a portion of it, not most of it, the whole thing. If they are not accepting a 100% reinstatement, then let the games begin. Do not move on with any further negotiations until that base pay has been completely reinstated. Anyone who votes that down, should just resign.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 01:51
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gamma69
I was made redundant from the WB group. For your comment about the AFAP wanting us back!!! It was in our EBA the one our group voted for, the WB folks...The narrow body guys voted the new agreement in...Not the returnees, I sense a little cyclical argument from you about the returnees, for one, how the whole group of Pilots in the WB/Regional/Tiger were treated from the union was shocking, I will never return the weak AFAP union again. Would you like a redundant clause early in your career, we all just cannot pack up and leave the country....
I agree with the Japan flying(should have been better handled by unions and pilots), but from noting who is flying those sectors are the ones with the biggest voices in the crew room to the flight deck about conditions EBA blah blah, are the ones flying the 8hour red eye home, have not seen a WB pilot yet do it.
Mate stand up and start picketing at Head office about the state of the conditions in person, what have you got to loose? 50years of experience should have taught you this medium here or in the flight deck isn't where you get results.
As for O/T and drafts, some of us lost our jobs, kids in school and all those life commitments(house etc) and not at end of careers with savings goals completed. Cost of living is out of control, we have to survive and work, not agreeing the current terms which I didn't vote in is great, but we all have had to make some sort of adjustment during our careers to fix the broken situations.

Lead the group mate, Im ready to fight for an agreement, we need a strong leader like you that has the guts to start an argument on PPRUNE about pilots.
Iím not working at VA anymore but Iím interested in what the issue is with Japan? Did they need pilots agreement to do red eyes?
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 02:14
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Captn Rex Havack
From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.
Noise, for a start. The cockpits of modern types such as the A350 are much quieter than a 737, and much less fatiguing on long sectors.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 02:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by On Guard
Iím not working at VA anymore but Iím interested in what the issue is with Japan? Did they need pilots agreement to do red eyes?
they needed pilots to agree to a 5 day paring away from home
the maximum in the agreement is currently 4.

Hence the thread starter we should have as a group asked for something or improvements to allow this paring to happen. Which I agree with.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 04:23
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farrari - when the East coast pilots did the Phukets they were 5 & 6 day opt in pairings, did you vehemently object to those being crewed that way as well ? I think in reality had no one opted in they could have crewed it as a four day pairing with some operational risk in the event of delays. The only demands the Union(s) could make would really only concern that pairing itself(as per the EA clause). As to the greater issues of a crappy EA, non-existent bidding satisfaction, low base salary etc. they are better assailed as a whole in bargaining for a completely new agreement I think.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 04:41
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gamma69
they needed pilots to agree to a 5 day paring away from home
the maximum in the agreement is currently 4.

Hence the thread starter we should have as a group asked for something or improvements to allow this paring to happen. Which I agree with.
Thats all correct. And for further information, the reason why itís a 5 day trip is you either need less than 18 hours rest or greater than 30 hours rest after a red eye. The fifth day is because the Company is rostering greater than 30 hours rest before you return to home base.

The reason there isnít as much leverage as some pilots make out is the fact the company were clearly adamant about commencing and operating the flights into Japan. If push came to shove and the 5 day pairings issue was going to cause any issues to commencing the route, they would have rescheduled one of the CNS BNE flights to depart around 20:00, and the crew from Japan would have their 12 hours off in the hotel after the red eye, and then operated the CNS BNE flight that same day to complete their pairing within the allowable 4 days.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 04:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox
Noise, for a start. The cockpits of modern types such as the A350 are much quieter than a 737, and much less fatiguing on long sectors.
Even with noise cancelling headsets?
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 06:40
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Took four goes but at least Buzzbox gave an answer to Rex Havacks question. First 3 may as well have said "no difference that I can think of, but let me whinge anyway.". Yeah, chuck rocks at me, but only Buzzbox actually answered the question
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 06:48
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We did Tokyo's and Sendai returns all the time in the 320 at Dragonair. Over 10 hours stick time. Wouldnt say it was pleasant but speaking personally, I didn't feel it any different from doing it in the 330
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 07:29
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Not a good comparison.

Even the clamping forces on the a20ís are literally doing my head in after 4-5 hours. Plus you have a Ď60ís certified seat. Plus the bloody control column.

Give me the foot stirrups, quiet cockpit, side-stick any day of the working week. Except below 1000ft 🤫
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 08:17
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Funny how l used to do 2 crew, 9 hr miamis from lhr in a noisy 744 and the air headsets were crap, so l took my own Bose QR 15 ones with boom mic. Much more blissful. Funny how we did 2 crew jfks and chicagos, very unpleasant at the wrong time of year. Get on with working.
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 08:46
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Oh my God. How DID you survive??? Yes, sarcasm applies
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Old 16th Jul 2023, 08:59
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.
Well put it this way. Try and certify that cockpit under the current suite of legislation rather than a 1970's grandfather rule and see how far you get..........

We did Tokyo's and Sendai returns all the time in the 320 at Dragonair. Over 10 hours stick time. Wouldnt say it was pleasant but speaking personally, I didn't feel it any different from doing it in the 330
Both those aircraft are far superior in pilot comfort to a 737 though.
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Old 17th Jul 2023, 12:20
  #35 (permalink)  
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Hell, it’s unsurprising that my post has become one about aircraft noise types.
F the type of aircraft flying to Japan, it’s totally irrelevant.
More importantly is the fact that Virgin went broke due to senior management not doing their job. Whilst all time VA pilots did at very high levels of professionalism and dedication.
Thank god for Bain, it saved us all. SA up didn’t, and they still aren’t Wonderful days don’t cut it……….
However my point is that whilst I respect It’s Bains business,, it doesn’t mean we as VA staff in any part of the business have to accept the conditions it wishes to apply to us. Bain is having a “ lend of us”. Any VA pilot ,who can now not see this are ‘ lost ‘.
It’s business nothing personal, we have a position to safe guard are employment conditions and opportunities. We have totally failed in this area.
Unfortunately Pilots do not have a competent professional Union to represent them. The AFAP are totally incompetent and inept.
My point here is Pilots need to see the woods past the trees and look to the long long game now.
I stand by my first post at the start of this.

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Old 17th Jul 2023, 14:34
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Well what, apart from ranting here, do you suggest VA pilots do about it ? Simply not opting in to a 5 day pairing isn’t really going to do anything. Many years ago there were a group of VA pilots who regarded the AFAP as totally incompetent and inept (they may have had a legitimate gripe regarding their performance) and so formed another Pilot’s Union that was going to blow the world away(VIPA). Eventually the reality of industrial relations as it pertains to Flight Crew in Australia became apparent and that Union now just sits in a small corner of the TWU. Whatever you think of the AFAP, ultimately it was VA pilots that voted up the current EA, although it has never been fully implemented due the sheer incompetence of the company with regards to the required software suite. Many are not accepting what Bain are dishing up, dozens have left for Atlas, Kalitta, National etc. Others are just waiting for the call to Q, a few have gone to Bonz. Outside of the ability to take PIA during bargaining the AFAP can make demands but equally Bain can just ignore them(and largely they have). Although this is somewhat perverse, you could be forgiven for a wry smile given that our OTP and cancellation rate is now the worst of QF JQ and Rex. It is a sign of sheer desperation when 10 credit hour drafts are offered to get people to come in. With 3 failed crewing software projects in the past decade and the current Sabre mess no longer supported by the vendor, the coming EA negotiations will need some resolute PIA to get any movement from Bain I think.
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 00:12
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Trevor the Lover -
Took four goes but at least Buzzbox gave an answer to Rex Havacks question.
Trevor the Lover = Rex Havacks = schizo
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 10:52
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
Thats all correct. And for further information, the reason why itís a 5 day trip is you either need less than 18 hours rest or greater than 30 hours rest after a red eye. The fifth day is because the Company is rostering greater than 30 hours rest before you return to home base.

The reason there isnít as much leverage as some pilots make out is the fact the company were clearly adamant about commencing and operating the flights into Japan. If push came to shove and the 5 day pairings issue was going to cause any issues to commencing the route, they would have rescheduled one of the CNS BNE flights to depart around 20:00, and the crew from Japan would have their 12 hours off in the hotel after the red eye, and then operated the CNS BNE flight that same day to complete their pairing within the allowable 4 days.
oh please. They wouldnít have change a pairing like that to avoid paying a crew and extra couple of hundred bucks.
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 15:04
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apt summary

Originally Posted by slice
Well what, apart from ranting here, do you suggest VA pilots do about it ? Simply not opting in to a 5 day pairing isnít really going to do anything. Many years ago there were a group of VA pilots who regarded the AFAP as totally incompetent and inept (they may have had a legitimate gripe regarding their performance) and so formed another Pilotís Union that was going to blow the world away(VIPA). Eventually the reality of industrial relations as it pertains to Flight Crew in Australia became apparent and that Union now just sits in a small corner of the TWU. Whatever you think of the AFAP, ultimately it was VA pilots that voted up the current EA, although it has never been fully implemented due the sheer incompetence of the company with regards to the required software suite. Many are not accepting what Bain are dishing up, dozens have left for Atlas, Kalitta, National etc. Others are just waiting for the call to Q, a few have gone to Bonz. Outside of the ability to take PIA during bargaining the AFAP can make demands but equally Bain can just ignore them(and largely they have). Although this is somewhat perverse, you could be forgiven for a wry smile given that our OTP and cancellation rate is now the worst of QF JQ and Rex. It is a sign of sheer desperation when 10 credit hour drafts are offered to get people to come in. With 3 failed crewing software projects in the past decade and the current Sabre mess no longer supported by the vendor, the coming EA negotiations will need some resolute PIA to get any movement from Bain I think.
Think you have nailed it here.
Sad times.
Bains train set, but pilot groups (again) are weak, selfish (when it comes to any sort of solidarity) and represented (lets use that term loosely) by weak industrial organisations. (representative groups have never been more aligned with management in this country IMO).
At time when in the rest of world pilots are being recognised and remunerated IAW their professional qualifications and experience, Aus pilots sell themselves to the cheapest bidders. Like whores.

Aus pilots need to wake up, as this is a juncture in industrial history where they (we) hold the power, but are simply wasting it. Even sign on bonuses in North America are 6 figure sums. Just to turn up to fly a 50 seater commuter.

To add to this sad state of affairs, the operators (V and Q alike) treat not only their best resources - their staff like disposable nappies, but also their customers. In the case of Bain and V - it's private equity 101. In the case of Q, well it's just BAU in reality.

As you say, PIA is the best option, however even then, the representative groups (TWU, AFAP etc) are weak, and seem to find any excuse and warn their (financial) members more often than not of the 'risks' etc . It does make it a hard situation. And ultimately plays right into the hands of the companies. Divide, and then conquer.

Aus pilots need to just wake up, and place a proper value on themselves, draw a line in the proverbial sand, and take it to these tyrannical organisations.
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 23:18
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ifylofd
Aus pilots sell themselves to the cheapest bidders. Like whores.
Ö.Some of whom earn significantly more than a Virgin CaptainÖ..
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