Virgin pilots
Thread Starter
FO ** Biatch, hopefully my posts help to point out that VA pilots should not have to work 80 hr rosters as u do, to earn that 200K. Hopefully they see the Union for what it is and this time put themselves first. Time for some to stop putting their fingers in the dam, and get it truely fixed.
And moral which you said is ******, gets un ******. Wouldn’t that be good. No wounderful.
You said “ no one is pushed to the limits “ and if tied or fatigued walk off , and Our wages are way above the average , and read the package , there is a wage increase.
Unfortunately you are part of the problem and others know that , luckily u are in a minority MATE.
I want to see the business thrive , your way is only a continuation of what is not working not good business.
See u on line , for that coffee.l
.ps, next time don’t plagiarise my posts , come up with your own propitious ideas.
And moral which you said is ******, gets un ******. Wouldn’t that be good. No wounderful.
You said “ no one is pushed to the limits “ and if tied or fatigued walk off , and Our wages are way above the average , and read the package , there is a wage increase.
Unfortunately you are part of the problem and others know that , luckily u are in a minority MATE.
I want to see the business thrive , your way is only a continuation of what is not working not good business.
See u on line , for that coffee.l
.ps, next time don’t plagiarise my posts , come up with your own propitious ideas.
Last edited by farrari; 21st Apr 2024 at 06:40.
I can’t quote you? You are the un-quotable?
As an outsider watching, you need to get a life. Going through someone’s post history like that is weird at best.
Why argue incessantly with a colleague who is arguing for better conditions and recognition.
What exactly is your position/hope for negotiations?
anyone arguing against that is suspect in this environment.
Why argue incessantly with a colleague who is arguing for better conditions and recognition.
What exactly is your position/hope for negotiations?
anyone arguing against that is suspect in this environment.
For your reference..... (my bolding and underlining)
And we're off and racing...
Oh whoops, I included a single apology..... back to regular programming....
Hard to tell, but i think the first bolding is another insult to the general pilot population....
Thought i would throw this in here.... OP tells everyone they should just lighten up.... after calling them dumb for the entire thread.... and the people who have "attacked" him should be ashamed of themselves???
And to finish (finally!!!) anyone who disagrees with him and votes yes for their own freely held opinions are aparenty not smart...... so, who is insulting who here??
And we're off and racing...
Oh whoops, I included a single apology..... back to regular programming....
Hard to tell, but i think the first bolding is another insult to the general pilot population....
Thought i would throw this in here.... OP tells everyone they should just lighten up.... after calling them dumb for the entire thread.... and the people who have "attacked" him should be ashamed of themselves???
And to finish (finally!!!) anyone who disagrees with him and votes yes for their own freely held opinions are aparenty not smart...... so, who is insulting who here??
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Thread Starter
Voters are turning away from the Federal Government, let’s hope this transitions to this terrible and very complex no real wage increase EA , along with continued yet increased fatigue working hrs it brings.
It’s an absolute shocker to enjoy a fair life style and be remunerated competitively
ps. For gods sake give commuters a duty travel seat, after all we are an airline aren’t we , we have seats. Union why aren’t u on this. Useless.
It’s an absolute shocker to enjoy a fair life style and be remunerated competitively
ps. For gods sake give commuters a duty travel seat, after all we are an airline aren’t we , we have seats. Union why aren’t u on this. Useless.
Last edited by farrari; 22nd Apr 2024 at 09:53.
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Ferrari.
It’s a crap company. It’s been trash for over a decade. I mean, as you say, doesn’t need to be like that, nobody has flicked the switch in xx years, why would the next few be any different, the same people who pull the strings still exist. Like any company.
You need a cyclone to pass through the F Ops department. The poles must have shifted because one hasn’t appeared in 15 years.
You want to turn this rubbish outfit into something good. Don’t most people? Reading this thread, it’s sad, most people just don’t give a fark, have long given up on the business.
You will be waiting for a generation changeover before that happens. The young FOs today are the clever ones, they keep their mouth shut but they can see the flaws. These people are the future, come back in say 20 years, they will better places to work at. They will show us all how things should be done on the culture side of things.
In the meantime, fight for your worth, but the personalities that exist and continue to destroy these companies (any) are not going anywhere.
It’s a crap company. It’s been trash for over a decade. I mean, as you say, doesn’t need to be like that, nobody has flicked the switch in xx years, why would the next few be any different, the same people who pull the strings still exist. Like any company.
You need a cyclone to pass through the F Ops department. The poles must have shifted because one hasn’t appeared in 15 years.
You want to turn this rubbish outfit into something good. Don’t most people? Reading this thread, it’s sad, most people just don’t give a fark, have long given up on the business.
You will be waiting for a generation changeover before that happens. The young FOs today are the clever ones, they keep their mouth shut but they can see the flaws. These people are the future, come back in say 20 years, they will better places to work at. They will show us all how things should be done on the culture side of things.
In the meantime, fight for your worth, but the personalities that exist and continue to destroy these companies (any) are not going anywhere.
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For gods sake give commuters a duty travel seat, after all we are an airline aren’t we , we have seats. Union why aren’t u on this. Useless.
For gods sake give commuters a duty travel seat, after all we are an airline aren’t we , we have seats. Union why aren’t u on this. Useless.
free airline travel to your ‘place of employment’.
Thread Starter
Yes u are correct it would be FBT , a tax the company pays. I feel the benefits outweigh the cost to the business.
Apart from ‘ salary packaging ‘ there are creative ways 🤪 around this, which B would be across.
After all they made a profit last fin yr and paid no tax.
ps Let’s hope those like Biatch here are the dinosaurs of this EA. This company needs a REAL change in CEO and some pilots thinking. Those like Biatch are holding us all back from better things. Mate get out of the way. The vast majority of your fellow pilots are unhappy , disengaged and over worked . They all tell me this on line. And I am not blind I see it . Their families deserve better.
Biatch said in a post , moral is ****** here at VA . True it’s ****** because of pilots like you mate, as I said you can’t see the woods for the trees. Working on days off , holidays ,Japan and the like only exacerbates the real underlying problem that we are under paid and overworked. One should receive a good wage NOT on 65 ,70 or 80 hrs . Continuous work at these hrs robs you of life style , physical fitness and mental happiness and time at home with family or friends.
It’s time for the ******* old thinking dinosaurs to step aside and allow this company to really excel , taking pilots once and for all ALONG to better times. Get out of the way. It’s nothing personal but you have no idea about business.
One more point, why does the Union and the Company have to have such a convoluted complex EA, which no really ever understands. How many times I have heard that comment. Hell it’s time for all parties to make it simple.
Oh and Biatch when did we really have time for some fun on the job , remember fun. Ok maybe on your min rest layer overs doing your insane 80 hr rosters. See how long that lasts Mate. Get your fingers out of the dam and stop being the problem . Say no to this lousy EA. Tell your union and the company no.
And this Dum Labour Party notion of equal pay equal job is rubbish.
Maybe for some very un skilled work yes. But Pilots no.
This EA should have pay levels based on years of service. That rewards skill and loyalty with the business. The Unions and delegates once again are totally out of touch with good EA content which promotes both good work practices and good business outcomes.
And there’s one of the AFAP delegates that ask me to call him which I did THEN ,; asks me ‘ why are you still flying ‘ he knows I am old. Then tells me if we don’t pass this EA ‘ the company will go broke or pull the pin’. And then tells me he will never fly with me, and finally hangs up on me. This is the calerbe of one of our reps.
The cycle of low wages long hrs min rest and poor life style needs to really once and for all end.
This proposed EA only continues that terrible cycle.
Apart from ‘ salary packaging ‘ there are creative ways 🤪 around this, which B would be across.
After all they made a profit last fin yr and paid no tax.
ps Let’s hope those like Biatch here are the dinosaurs of this EA. This company needs a REAL change in CEO and some pilots thinking. Those like Biatch are holding us all back from better things. Mate get out of the way. The vast majority of your fellow pilots are unhappy , disengaged and over worked . They all tell me this on line. And I am not blind I see it . Their families deserve better.
Biatch said in a post , moral is ****** here at VA . True it’s ****** because of pilots like you mate, as I said you can’t see the woods for the trees. Working on days off , holidays ,Japan and the like only exacerbates the real underlying problem that we are under paid and overworked. One should receive a good wage NOT on 65 ,70 or 80 hrs . Continuous work at these hrs robs you of life style , physical fitness and mental happiness and time at home with family or friends.
It’s time for the ******* old thinking dinosaurs to step aside and allow this company to really excel , taking pilots once and for all ALONG to better times. Get out of the way. It’s nothing personal but you have no idea about business.
One more point, why does the Union and the Company have to have such a convoluted complex EA, which no really ever understands. How many times I have heard that comment. Hell it’s time for all parties to make it simple.
Oh and Biatch when did we really have time for some fun on the job , remember fun. Ok maybe on your min rest layer overs doing your insane 80 hr rosters. See how long that lasts Mate. Get your fingers out of the dam and stop being the problem . Say no to this lousy EA. Tell your union and the company no.
And this Dum Labour Party notion of equal pay equal job is rubbish.
Maybe for some very un skilled work yes. But Pilots no.
This EA should have pay levels based on years of service. That rewards skill and loyalty with the business. The Unions and delegates once again are totally out of touch with good EA content which promotes both good work practices and good business outcomes.
And there’s one of the AFAP delegates that ask me to call him which I did THEN ,; asks me ‘ why are you still flying ‘ he knows I am old. Then tells me if we don’t pass this EA ‘ the company will go broke or pull the pin’. And then tells me he will never fly with me, and finally hangs up on me. This is the calerbe of one of our reps.
The cycle of low wages long hrs min rest and poor life style needs to really once and for all end.
This proposed EA only continues that terrible cycle.
Last edited by farrari; 26th Apr 2024 at 10:25.
Thread Starter
Well , having being out there on line over the past weeks since the new EA was outlined, together with some ‘ Polls’ taken recently , it looks like the vast majority of Pilots ‘ DO NOT ENDORSE ‘ the new terrible EA.
And interestingly on line, both young and older pilots are saying , I will vote NO.
And there’s the founder of Aussie home loans selling his house for 2OO million, still think we are well paid as Pilots. And if you don’t get that you are seriously stupid.
And interestingly on line, both young and older pilots are saying , I will vote NO.
And there’s the founder of Aussie home loans selling his house for 2OO million, still think we are well paid as Pilots. And if you don’t get that you are seriously stupid.
Last edited by farrari; 1st May 2024 at 08:22.
Well , having being out there on line over the past weeks since the new EA was outlined, together with some ‘ Polls’ taken recently , it looks like the vast majority of Pilots ‘ DO NOT ENDORSE ‘ the new terrible EA.
And interestingly on line, both young and older pilots are saying , I will vote NO.
And there’s the founder of Aussie home loans selling his house for 2OO million, still think we are well paid as Pilots. And if you don’t get that you are seriously stupid.
And interestingly on line, both young and older pilots are saying , I will vote NO.
And there’s the founder of Aussie home loans selling his house for 2OO million, still think we are well paid as Pilots. And if you don’t get that you are seriously stupid.
Good on the guys and girls at VA. It’s about time Aussie pilots fought for some leading conditions.
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Thread Starter
The company, Casa and the like talk about fatigue and wellness. They talk about it in NTS and on VL but never provide the duty time / pay hrs to deliver. It’s all ******* talk , total waste of time and a total insult to everyone and we all know it.
We all know that the company with all its so called managers who never visit us, do nothing to look after our wellbeing, our lifestyle and most importantly our families.
When one does a day trip or a four day trip , the opportunity to exercise as recommended by medical people is generally very difficult if not impossible . Consequently most Pilots don’t. This = both an unhealthy lifestyle and fatigue . For commuters this is even more difficult.
Once again this is not addressed by the new EA , even though out ‘ there ‘, there is the ‘ talk ‘ .
Low pay and long hrs to achieve some sort of life style pay is a disgrace. It’s totally unacceptable and uncompetitive in the work environment.
My statement to the delegates and the Union is “ where is the life style “.
It’s also not good for the Company and again we all know why.
As I have said above, I want to see VA do really well as a business, a major part of that must be an engaged happy workforce.
The union should be jumping up and down re min rest hrs ,absolutely ridiculous duty hrs, monthly days off and so so importantly a good work/home lifestyle for this job, which does not exist for the VAST majority of Pilots. This proposed new EA only makes things worse.
ps , As generally for most of us are PAYE tax payers the system is ******, add zip deductions and super tax over 250 k it’s really totally ******. Meanwhile trades get a 150:k annual deduction which is why they drive annually new Ford SV etc, for very little brain power , and study etc .
Good on them . And us ?
Still think our EA is competitive out ‘ There’
‘
We all know that the company with all its so called managers who never visit us, do nothing to look after our wellbeing, our lifestyle and most importantly our families.
When one does a day trip or a four day trip , the opportunity to exercise as recommended by medical people is generally very difficult if not impossible . Consequently most Pilots don’t. This = both an unhealthy lifestyle and fatigue . For commuters this is even more difficult.
Once again this is not addressed by the new EA , even though out ‘ there ‘, there is the ‘ talk ‘ .
Low pay and long hrs to achieve some sort of life style pay is a disgrace. It’s totally unacceptable and uncompetitive in the work environment.
My statement to the delegates and the Union is “ where is the life style “.
It’s also not good for the Company and again we all know why.
As I have said above, I want to see VA do really well as a business, a major part of that must be an engaged happy workforce.
The union should be jumping up and down re min rest hrs ,absolutely ridiculous duty hrs, monthly days off and so so importantly a good work/home lifestyle for this job, which does not exist for the VAST majority of Pilots. This proposed new EA only makes things worse.
ps , As generally for most of us are PAYE tax payers the system is ******, add zip deductions and super tax over 250 k it’s really totally ******. Meanwhile trades get a 150:k annual deduction which is why they drive annually new Ford SV etc, for very little brain power , and study etc .
Good on them . And us ?
Still think our EA is competitive out ‘ There’
‘
Last edited by farrari; 5th May 2024 at 05:50.
As someone who has a little bit of experience in this arena, I can assure you that the only path to a better outcome is to convince the company you are prepared to take industrial action. Without that, you may make some incremental gains on what is already on the table, but basically you are at the end of the negotiating phase. Industrial action is legal for a reason. Without the ability to withdraw your labour, you have very limited leverage in the fight. Sure, you can take all your sick days, refuse drafts, go fatigued etc, but that is minor inconvenience. Approved industrial action hits the bottom line immediately because forward booking dry up almost immediately, and that's about the only thing that will make private equity Tsars pay attention.
Lastly, the biggest problem for Australian pilots in the industrial landscape is the unwillingness of the vast majority of union members to lift a finger to help the cause. View pilots in America. They get out in their uniforms with signs advocating for their conditions. Australian pilots sit behind keyboards and complain that somebody should do something. Great gains only come great effort and great risk. Remember, the delegates are just your representatives, don't expect them to do anything you wouldn't do yourself.
- Step 1, make sure the company knows that the union recommendation is not supported by the members, which makes the company aware that doing sweetheart deals with union won't get the job done.
- Step 2, informally gauge the will to take industrial action. This needs to be informal because if you take formal poll and it comes back negative, you're screwed. Once the company understands there is no appetite for industrial action, the fight is lost. If the appetite does exist, procedd to step 3.
- Step 3. Proceed to a formal ballot for industrial action. Once that is in your pocket, you have some serious negotiation power.
Lastly, the biggest problem for Australian pilots in the industrial landscape is the unwillingness of the vast majority of union members to lift a finger to help the cause. View pilots in America. They get out in their uniforms with signs advocating for their conditions. Australian pilots sit behind keyboards and complain that somebody should do something. Great gains only come great effort and great risk. Remember, the delegates are just your representatives, don't expect them to do anything you wouldn't do yourself.
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As someone who has a little bit of experience in this arena, I can assure you that the only path to a better outcome is to convince the company you are prepared to take industrial action. Without that, you may make some incremental gains on what is already on the table, but basically you are at the end of the negotiating phase. Industrial action is legal for a reason. Without the ability to withdraw your labour, you have very limited leverage in the fight. Sure, you can take all your sick days, refuse drafts, go fatigued etc, but that is minor inconvenience. Approved industrial action hits the bottom line immediately because forward booking dry up almost immediately, and that's about the only thing that will make private equity Tsars pay attention.
Lastly, the biggest problem for Australian pilots in the industrial landscape is the unwillingness of the vast majority of union members to lift a finger to help the cause. View pilots in America. They get out in their uniforms with signs advocating for their conditions. Australian pilots sit behind keyboards and complain that somebody should do something. Great gains only come great effort and great risk. Remember, the delegates are just your representatives, don't expect them to do anything you wouldn't do yourself.
- Step 1, make sure the company knows that the union recommendation is not supported by the members, which makes the company aware that doing sweetheart deals with union won't get the job done.
- Step 2, informally gauge the will to take industrial action. This needs to be informal because if you take formal poll and it comes back negative, you're screwed. Once the company understands there is no appetite for industrial action, the fight is lost. If the appetite does exist, procedd to step 3.
- Step 3. Proceed to a formal ballot for industrial action. Once that is in your pocket, you have some serious negotiation power.
Lastly, the biggest problem for Australian pilots in the industrial landscape is the unwillingness of the vast majority of union members to lift a finger to help the cause. View pilots in America. They get out in their uniforms with signs advocating for their conditions. Australian pilots sit behind keyboards and complain that somebody should do something. Great gains only come great effort and great risk. Remember, the delegates are just your representatives, don't expect them to do anything you wouldn't do yourself.
Lastly, the biggest problem for Australian pilots in the industrial landscape is the unwillingness of the vast majority of union members to lift a finger to help the cause. View pilots in America. They get out in their uniforms with signs advocating for their conditions. Australian pilots sit behind keyboards and complain that somebody should do something. Great gains only come great effort and great risk. Remember, the delegates are just your representatives, don't expect them to do anything you wouldn't do yourself.
At last some realism in the whole industrial action narrative. Not just for Virgin but for the whole industry. PIA in and of itself is useless unless the entire pilot body of whatever airline is prepared to put some skin in the game. simply voting yes on the ballot and then sitting at the local pilot pub while a small group of pilots take the financial hit and don't show up for their rostered duty is not industrial action! Get out to the airport and publicise your grievance. As VE highlighted this is what the Americans do and they get the pay rises. This is what the TWU and all those unions that take industrial action seriously. You ask anyone now what they want from PIA and all you get is "We just want to show 'em" When you dig deeper and ask what it is that they will be showed, its like a roo in the headlights.
From the mates I've spoken to at VA, it's not "I'll vote no to anything", but rather "I'll vote no to the deal made between the Company and one union that doesn't even keep up with inflation".
BIG difference
BIG difference
Forget about CPI. That horse has been flogged to death since 1989.
Pilot representatives have to be aggressively directed towards forcing airlines to sufficiently resource their schedule versus the pilot service agreement.
So if the base is 70 hours, it must cost the airline significantly more to make a call out than it is to employ a pilot. What is that significant call out? Start with 2% of the base pay per day? And make any rostered time above the base hours prohibitive to encourage sufficient pilot employment.
Make it more expensive for airlines to use existing resources, than it is to employ additional resources.
Pilot representatives have to be aggressively directed towards forcing airlines to sufficiently resource their schedule versus the pilot service agreement.
So if the base is 70 hours, it must cost the airline significantly more to make a call out than it is to employ a pilot. What is that significant call out? Start with 2% of the base pay per day? And make any rostered time above the base hours prohibitive to encourage sufficient pilot employment.
Make it more expensive for airlines to use existing resources, than it is to employ additional resources.
Seems interesting out there on the line that many are disengaged/over the feds sales pitch. Many are also over all the noise in the chat groups. They may share the sentiment of those in the chat groups but just tired of hearing about it.
The silent majority will make (or break) this vote and imo it’s heavily leaning no (understandably).
It’s pretty simple to see how short VA are being sold when compared to the Feds log of claims for QF.
Additionally, no matter how big the $$ number looks for an FO, they’re always going to be better off at QF or JQ with far quicker time to command and better base and fleet options.
The silent majority will make (or break) this vote and imo it’s heavily leaning no (understandably).
It’s pretty simple to see how short VA are being sold when compared to the Feds log of claims for QF.
Additionally, no matter how big the $$ number looks for an FO, they’re always going to be better off at QF or JQ with far quicker time to command and better base and fleet options.
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Coming up with a list of ‘asks’ is the easy bit and often detrimental in setting expectations. The far more difficult part is actually achieving outcomes for members.
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