Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'

[maverick4442]

Originally Posted by megan

beamer is merely stating the facts, I've never come across a pilot who took up the business because of the money on offer, no surprise that tail wheel liked the post, as do I.

Absolute race to the bottom comment.

Have some respect for what we do day in day out I did not get into this Industry for conditions/pay to be on the decline.
I am sure others would agree, yes we love the job but the remuneration also has to be competitive otherwise why even do what we do.

[ShandywithSugar]

Originally Posted by cLeArIcE

We can all whinge about Joyce and Co and the attitude towards the work force and lack of respect for the profession etc (I'm the worst culprit of this) but can you really blame them?
My question is what have we done to demand better? No one hands you respect you need to take it.

1.Sick of horrible rosters? How many times do you say "**** it, it's my kids birthday and you didn't give me the day off I'm going to call in sick anyway."
2. Scheduling to the limit with an expectation that you'll extend to get the job done. Do you say "We are fully boarded but no, I'm not extending I'm getting Off"
3. ****ty scheduling, hotels, meals, paxing in cattle class middle seats. How often do you go fatigued because of this?
4. PIA? At least JQ did it, but didn't follow through quick enough then COVID etc. Then for some reason we rolled over after covid. QF whinge about network etc, when was the last time you did anything about it? Ties and PAs don't count.
5. Network pilots doing days off for $$ that wouldn't get most people out Of bed etc and so many more examples...

The problem has always been if you don't bend over and take it someone else will. Perhaps finally there is a chance that the pool to choose from is emptying... But will we still roll over for a smacko and a belly rub? My guess is we probably will.
No one gets what they deserve in this world. You get what
​​​​​​you take. There is no room for weakness and for a bunch of fairly intelligent people, we are weak as ****.

For clarity Network was purchased in Feburary 2011 and PIA for LH started in November. A rather long bow to draw. I dare suggest there won't be ties and PAs next time.

[neville_nobody]

PIA at the next EBA, that’s what!!!!

And that is the problem for pilots you are then backed into a corner. The company may then also get PIA blocked legally. You only have to look at what QF have done at a IR level to know it is not as simple as PIA. You may even get locked out before it goes to PIA just as QF did for something as benign as wearing the wrong tie.

In some ways you are better off just sticking strictly to the contract and letting it all burn down around you as eventually the owners will then be forced to do something as all the customers start leaving because you are unreliable. However that requires pilots not to go above and beyond to save the day. Unfortunately that too can ultimately become a pyrrhic victory.

[megan]

Absolute race to the bottom comment.

Have some respect for what we do day in day out I did not get into this Industry for conditions/pay to be on the decline.
I am sure others would agree, yes we love the job but the remuneration also has to be competitive otherwise why even do what we do

So why are you voting EBA's up that don't give what you want? The ball is in your court, grow a spine rather than bleat.

[PoppaJo]

Originally Posted by Red69

The engineers have the right idea. They realise they're trying to sell an airline so PIA is going to hurt them. At least they all stand together and take action. Just hoping the pilots will too. There is nothing positive about working at Virgin. There is no respect for pilots, the T's and C's are the worst of the major airlines, there is no career progression and no help for the many many commuters who got burnt during COVID. The airline needs a proper seniority list, needs pilots in the base they want to be in and needs T and C's improve. Without that they will forever be a stepping stone airline. VA need to be aiming for QF pay, not JQ. It's the same fleet, same network, same operation. Why not the same pay and career progression?

Yes. Don’t forget the CEO is expected to cash in up to $70m on her exit. Wouldn’t have happened without the VA front line teams. Stand up for yourself FFS.

[Captn Rex Havack]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

[morno]

Originally Posted by Captn Rex Havack

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

The fact that they get penalties to do it

[megan]

The fact that they get penalties to do it

Because they're on hourly rates of pay, not a salary, apples and oranges. Hourly rate can have its benefits, once earned 48 hours pay per day as an apprentice electrician while doing sea trials on a new ship, ostensibly on duty 24 hours per day which made it double time, then became a pilot on a salary Ggggrrrr.

[Red69]

Originally Posted by Captn Rex Havack

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

This attitude right here is what is wrong with pilots and our EBA’s. While office workers get the flexibility to wfh, take annual leave when they want, sleep in their own bed when they want, get job security and get consistent pay rises, your clinging on to the some old school belief that we should still be sacrificing our most important family events for a company that would get rid of us at the blink of an eye?

Every other worker has achieved greater flexibility and terms and conditions during COVID except for pilots. Yet you still expect us to be a charity with our dwindling terms and conditions for a company whose executives are some of the highest paid in the country?

Once upon a time a pilot could run a single income household where the partner could look after the family. With our current terms and conditions, that’s no longer possible. So yes, I will take off the important days to see my family/wife/kids unless I am given an incentive to do so otherwise.

[maverick4442]

Originally Posted by megan

So why are you voting EBA's up that don't give what you want? The ball is in your court, grow a spine rather than bleat.

Think it time for you to go to Specsavers Megan,
read your above comment supporting we did not get into aviation because of the money.

Maybe you are happy working for an unattractive contract but many others are not.

As for signing in rubbish agreements I have never voted Yes to one I think is rubbish.
Maybe you should grow a spine and try for a better contract rather than “not getting into aviation for the money”

[megan]

some old school belief that we should still be sacrificing our most important family events

Lot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

[maverick4442]

Originally Posted by megan

Lot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

Great Story Megan!
Would have been better if you stayed in your previous profession because all you do is try and justify the pineapple Pilots have taken is justified.

The modern crop of Pilots seem to have realised conditions and pay have to get better otherwise what is the point!

[Red69]

Originally Posted by megan

Lot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

Yep but those professions have stability and UPWARDS pressure on terms and conditions. Mining pay, rosters and living conditions have continually improved. They also have job security and and can move jobs freely without worrying about seniority. Pilots also have a lot more responsibility and the profession involves a hell of a lot more investment and sacrifice. It’s time to be paid appropriately otherwise this industry will continue to suffer.

[maverick4442]

Originally Posted by Red69

Yep but those professions have stability and UPWARDS pressure on terms and conditions. Mining pay, rosters and living conditions have continually improved. They also have job security and and can move jobs freely without worrying about seniority. Pilots also have a lot more responsibility and the profession involves a hell of a lot more investment and sacrifice. It’s time to be paid appropriately otherwise this industry will continue to suffer.

Could not agree more!

[Break Right]

Megan is an office stooge. Ignore her.

[soseg]

Originally Posted by maverick4442

Think it time for you to go to Specsavers Megan,
read your above comment supporting we did not get into aviation because of the money.

Maybe you are happy working for an unattractive contract but many others are not.

As for signing in rubbish agreements I have never voted Yes to one I think is rubbish.
Maybe you should grow a spine and try for a better contract rather than “not getting into aviation for the money”

Women. Far too agreeable and too scared to stick up for what they're worth. Then they cry poor when men out earn them in industries where you have the ability to negotiate your Ts & Cs.

[RealSatoshi]

Originally Posted by Red69

Yet you still expect us to be a charity with our dwindling terms and conditions for a company whose executives are some of the highest paid in the country?

...try replacing country with most of the world

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

Whenever you're told that you're not worth more...remember this:

2021 CEO Total Compensation (USD) as a function of Company Market Cap
0.0787% ----> Qantas : $5.577 Million @ $7.089 Billion Market Cap

0.0780% ----> American Airlines : $7.24 Million @ $9.287 Billion Market Cap
0.0729% ----> United Airlines : $9.85 Million @ $13.52 Billion Market Cap
0.0583% ----> Alaska Airlines : $3.21 Million @ $5.506 Billion Market Cap
0.0570% ----> Delta Airlines : $12.4 Million @ $21.74 Billion Market Cap
0.0282% ----> Southwest : $5.8 Million @ $20.54 Billion Market Cap

0.0040% ----> Apple : $98 Million @ $2.448 Trillion Market Cap
0.0027% ----> Microsoft : $49.858 Million @ $1.869 Trillion Market Cap
0.0005% ----> Google : $6.32 Million @ $1.365 Trillion Market Cap

[megan]

Would have been better if you stayed in your previous profession because all you do is try and justify the pineapple Pilots have taken is justified

If your pilots are being fed pineapple it's because they seem to like the diet, it's they who vote the EBA. Our little group of pilots were under the AFAP until the union threatened to have Norm Gallagher of the BLF and his mates come sort us out (todays pilots probably too young to remember him and his union). Following the threat we dumped the AFAP and formed our own union, since all the negotiation with the company was by us anyway, the AFAP was just a rubber stamp to have what we had agreed with the company to be ratified.

[First_Principal]

Originally Posted by Break Right

Megan is an office stooge. Ignore her.

You might want to review this somewhat incautious comment; take look at megan's contribution here (and elsewhere)...

... and while reasonable payment for your expertise is important I also appreciate those who simply do their work well out of pride, honour, and sense of duty, not just for maximum $$. I suspect that, apart from the sheer enjoyment of it, this is something megan, beamer and tailwheel may have in common.

It probably takes a few years to understand, and some may never get it, but rewards are not always monetary.

FP.

[43Inches]

Unions are fairly useless without a large member base. After all that is what a Union is all about, the massed power of the workforce united vs the financial power of the corporation/company. With mass membership the union can provide legal power that equals what a corporation can muster. It is better to have a few very large unions with each company having it's own representation vs it's company than having 50 small disjointed unions for an industry sector. I think pilots forget that it is the internal pilot committees that should be deciding what is required from the company in industrial negotiations. The union just provides the finance/muscle to make it happen. Companies can pretend to negotiate with smaller groups because they are easier to manipulate over the long term, so they seemingly get their way, but could have achieved a lot more if the industry as a whole had proper representation.

Australian pilot wages and conditions directly reflect the fact that the union movement here is poor and misunderstood. Most people are brainwashed into thinking unions are militant and no good, and only a company based union will give you what you want... Just like believing individual negotiation leads to better wages... The Libs got you good....