Normalisation of deviance in QF IR.
Again we are not talking aviation, Aviation is the worst working conditions out of most white collar jobs I know, what we were comparing to was outside of aviation. In retail a manager is paid somewhere around 3 times a floor worker, in aviation the equivalant is paid maybe a few thousand more, not even double. The reward for management and office positions is pathetic in aviation for all airlines, which why corporate positions that are not the top jobs are in constant turnover. Too much stress, not enough support, not enough pay. Unfortunately I've worked for enough airlines to see they all have the same issue, not enough staff in those positions paid too little to retain.
To put it in perspective a store manager at Coles is paid in excess of $100,000 depending on store size up to $200,000. They also get access to a number of perks. That is the equivalent of a base flight ops manager, flight attendant manager, ramp or airport base manager etc. They also get underling assistants and such to help them do their job, shift managers, department managers, all cascading down so the upper managers workload is not huge. In aviation management you are usually solo, handling the jobs of several people on pay for one.
PS if you think work ethic means working for free, just because the boss won't give you the time or resources to do it properly there's no saving you, and all you do is pay for more bonus to the AJs of the world. The common theme for office work is now less hours but more intense work during those hours to allow more free time. Talk about moving to 3 and 4 day weeks (although I'm yet to see it en-masse), the old happy workers are productive workers etc.... Aviation is still in the 1950s.
To put it in perspective a store manager at Coles is paid in excess of $100,000 depending on store size up to $200,000. They also get access to a number of perks. That is the equivalent of a base flight ops manager, flight attendant manager, ramp or airport base manager etc. They also get underling assistants and such to help them do their job, shift managers, department managers, all cascading down so the upper managers workload is not huge. In aviation management you are usually solo, handling the jobs of several people on pay for one.
PS if you think work ethic means working for free, just because the boss won't give you the time or resources to do it properly there's no saving you, and all you do is pay for more bonus to the AJs of the world. The common theme for office work is now less hours but more intense work during those hours to allow more free time. Talk about moving to 3 and 4 day weeks (although I'm yet to see it en-masse), the old happy workers are productive workers etc.... Aviation is still in the 1950s.
Last edited by 43Inches; 10th Feb 2023 at 05:07.
Best talk on Normalised Deviance I have watched, worth the time if you can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o
More rubbish 43 inches.
I worked in the offices of a major Australian airline for 25 years as a manager. I can say without hesitation that nearly all of the office staff, most of whom were covered by an EBA, carried out their jobs with dedication and professionalism. Very few were clock watchers and most, if not all, did the extra yards when and where required.
Even today, such dedicated people, do the extra hours to get pilot rosters out each and every month. I can assure you that they don’t down tools at 5pm or leave unfinished work until after the weekend.
I didn’t detect, at all, that this professionalism and dedication was motivated by brown nosing for a promotion.
Yes, the mummies had to leave at certain times because they had child commitments, but when needed they happily made alternative arrangements.
Unlike the engineers/ ground staff who worked in the overhaul shop: At 3.30 pm, the equivalent of the local olympics would take place as they ( a lot of them) sprinted, yes sprinted, out of the workshop, clocked off, across the pedestrian crossing, through the turnstiles, up the ramp to their carpark. I suspect the motivation for this was to beat the traffic.
I worked in the offices of a major Australian airline for 25 years as a manager. I can say without hesitation that nearly all of the office staff, most of whom were covered by an EBA, carried out their jobs with dedication and professionalism. Very few were clock watchers and most, if not all, did the extra yards when and where required.
Even today, such dedicated people, do the extra hours to get pilot rosters out each and every month. I can assure you that they don’t down tools at 5pm or leave unfinished work until after the weekend.
I didn’t detect, at all, that this professionalism and dedication was motivated by brown nosing for a promotion.
Yes, the mummies had to leave at certain times because they had child commitments, but when needed they happily made alternative arrangements.
Unlike the engineers/ ground staff who worked in the overhaul shop: At 3.30 pm, the equivalent of the local olympics would take place as they ( a lot of them) sprinted, yes sprinted, out of the workshop, clocked off, across the pedestrian crossing, through the turnstiles, up the ramp to their carpark. I suspect the motivation for this was to beat the traffic.
But here's some generational info that is seperating the younger generations from the older. Quality of life is becoming more important than outright money, and you're starting to see that in the new contracts US pilots are negotiating. Something that is being targeted is the company wasting your time unpaid, like long airport sits for example. At delta, if a sit is over 2 hours, they get 1 minute of flight pay for every 2 mins thereafter. Not bad if you're a captain on USD$350/hr. This will either result in making more money for inefficient schedules, or make schedules more efficient. Either is good.
They also have a saying in the US, it's FUPM (I'll leave you to google it). Unpaid labour, whether on the flight deck or in the office is not good work ethic, it's exploitation. I'll leave you with this question though. After 25 years in airline management of turning up early and working late, instead of spending that time with the people in your life that you actually matter to, was it worth it??
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JaimeeMaree:
By your obvious contempt for the engineers, you have just demonstrated the yawning gulf between management and staff. You must be horrible to work for.
‘’Let me explain it to you; the non tie wearing, dirty handed workers on the floor that you despise indeed have to clock on and clock off. They are paid an hourly rate, period. They have to line up, like serfs, at the end of the day, behind the turnstiles, and wait for the bell to ring before they can clock off and go home. If they are late for work, even by a minute, in my day we were fined fifteen minutes wages. The rigid “clock on / clock off” system demonstrates that their only value to the company was the hours they supply. If more hours were needed then you paid overtime. There was SFA incentive to “do that little bi extra’.
‘’Meanwhile, while the engineers are standing patiently in their queue, you salaried types who don’t have your hours measured, are sashaying in and out making small talk with the security guards, or going out for coffee. What was worse in some establishments was that the management car park was inside the security fence. When you were queued up waiting for the bell on Friday afternoon, you got to watch the bosses drive past you like lords of creation, while we were getting ready for the hundred yard sprint to the muddy car park in the rain…
Been on both sides, most talk about “extra effort”, “work ethic”, etc. is just management crap. You won’t be thanked, le lone rewarded for extra effort. In fact senior management, seeing two people do the work of four, often responds by cutting staff.
‘’The bigredrat is spot on.
Unlike the engineers/ ground staff who worked in the overhaul shop: At 3.30 pm, the equivalent of the local olympics would take place as they ( a lot of them) sprinted, yes sprinted, out of the workshop, clocked off, across the pedestrian crossing, through the turnstiles, up the ramp to their carpark. I suspect the motivation for this was to beat the traffic.
‘’Let me explain it to you; the non tie wearing, dirty handed workers on the floor that you despise indeed have to clock on and clock off. They are paid an hourly rate, period. They have to line up, like serfs, at the end of the day, behind the turnstiles, and wait for the bell to ring before they can clock off and go home. If they are late for work, even by a minute, in my day we were fined fifteen minutes wages. The rigid “clock on / clock off” system demonstrates that their only value to the company was the hours they supply. If more hours were needed then you paid overtime. There was SFA incentive to “do that little bi extra’.
‘’Meanwhile, while the engineers are standing patiently in their queue, you salaried types who don’t have your hours measured, are sashaying in and out making small talk with the security guards, or going out for coffee. What was worse in some establishments was that the management car park was inside the security fence. When you were queued up waiting for the bell on Friday afternoon, you got to watch the bosses drive past you like lords of creation, while we were getting ready for the hundred yard sprint to the muddy car park in the rain…
Been on both sides, most talk about “extra effort”, “work ethic”, etc. is just management crap. You won’t be thanked, le lone rewarded for extra effort. In fact senior management, seeing two people do the work of four, often responds by cutting staff.
‘’The bigredrat is spot on.
When it comes to our next eba ‘negotiation’ we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to how other workers have fared in monetary terms alone. We should be looking at all of these work/life improvements and saying “we’d like some of those as well please”. Or the financial equivalent. Personally I’d take the time at home.
Not only were a lot of my mates working from home due to the pandemic but they got allowances and tax breaks to set up home offices. So they got to stay home and were paid more. That being said, some of them like to go to the office as a break from home for a few days a week and interact with colleagues.
That's where productivity suffers as the staff know that and come up with ingenious ways to look like they are working when they are not. Simple things like carrying a manila folder, occasionally opening it to look at a blank sheet inside while you gas bag about the weekend. Management will see the folder and think you are shop talking. If they see you just talking and happy they assume you don't have enough work and get grumpy. Engineers are no different, just have something in hand that looks like you are conversing over that part or data set. The key is to never look like you are done working and management will assume everyone is being 100% productive. Some of the 'hardest' working people in managements eyes are just really good at deception and the real powerhouses go by unnoticed as they do it quietly in the background.
The secretaries at the old CAA office in YMMB come to mind. They were great for getting things done quickly without fuss. Need a licence printed, they would do it, follow up on some paperwork they would go to who was handling it and get an answer. When the gov at the time decided to downsize CAA/CASA they were the first to go and it became difficult to do the simple things as you had to deal directly with the FOI or such dealing with it and they were never in or had time.
Hence why Rex pilots jumped at getting an extra 2 days off per roster and got it, although on a buyback scheme, but it at least means if they get to normal staff levels you will get 2 extra RDO rather than reserves and if you don't you get paid more for the same workload. Pilots don't really get to work from home, and each ground course replaced with a CBT just means another flying day so additional days off is the only real way to get proper lifestyle balance.
Been on both sides, most talk about “extra effort”, “work ethic”, etc. is just management crap. You won’t be thanked, le lone rewarded for extra effort. In fact senior management, seeing two people do the work of four, often responds by cutting staff.
The secretaries at the old CAA office in YMMB come to mind. They were great for getting things done quickly without fuss. Need a licence printed, they would do it, follow up on some paperwork they would go to who was handling it and get an answer. When the gov at the time decided to downsize CAA/CASA they were the first to go and it became difficult to do the simple things as you had to deal directly with the FOI or such dealing with it and they were never in or had time.
When it comes to our next eba ‘negotiation’ we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to how other workers have fared in monetary terms alone. We should be looking at all of these work/life improvements and saying “we’d like some of those as well please”. Or the financial equivalent. Personally I’d take the time at home.
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