717 NJS - What's Going On?
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717 NJS - What's Going On?
Can anyone shed some light on what's happening at NJS? I thought they used to be pretty organised and knew several guys and girls there that were good operators. But recently I've heard lots of rumours, each more scary than the last!
Two engines going bang in flight in as many weeks. An RTO in Melbourne. A fumes event. Flight after flight cancelled due no FOs. One base that has lost more than half the FO complement in a matter of weeks. Aircraft returning to the bay frequently. C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.
Have I been given poor information, or is it really that bad?
Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time ... how will they crew and maintain 20x A220s? Management's "strategic imperatives" on the A220 contract seems like it was a great win ... for Atlas.
Two engines going bang in flight in as many weeks. An RTO in Melbourne. A fumes event. Flight after flight cancelled due no FOs. One base that has lost more than half the FO complement in a matter of weeks. Aircraft returning to the bay frequently. C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.
Have I been given poor information, or is it really that bad?
Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time ... how will they crew and maintain 20x A220s? Management's "strategic imperatives" on the A220 contract seems like it was a great win ... for Atlas.
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time .
Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Surely you are taking the piss? Sounds toxic.
Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.
Ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Multiple sources in the other thread have confirmed as much, exactly for the reason you described.
Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.
Maybe some ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.
Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.
Maybe some ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.
Is it as simple as ex RAAF jocks who want to convince themselves they’re still important? Has due process been done putting these people in these positions?
Surely if 70% of people who have been flying the jet successfully for years can’t change seat, it points at an organisational and training problem and CASA should be asking questions.
Imagine if you had a driving school where 70% of candidates couldn’t pass their driving test. They would have their training accreditation cancelled immediately.
Originally Posted by Lapon
It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
But WHY are they doing this? What’s the psychology behind it?
Then stroke yourself as you tell your subordinates what an awesome life you once lived flying jets and being deployed somewhere. I don't think these guys realise that the rest of us don't care or aren't impressed.
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Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?
Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?
My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.
But as was alluded to on the other thread it may just be the C&T staff freeing up space for their ex RAAF mates to come in as DEC, skipping seniority. If that’s the case absolutely horrible.
If that’s genuinely the case then it shows the C&T staff are incompetent trainers straight up, if you can’t train 70% of long term FOs to command standard the problem is with trainer, not the student.
Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.
I worked with a CP once who refused to hire them. Some will know who I’m taking about.
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Originally Posted by Lapon
It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
Originally Posted by dr dre
My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.
What makes you believe the RAAF (or any military organisation in the World) doesn’t want a system which, through testing, selection and training achieves a 100% pass rate?
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Years ago, whilst working for a US outfit. Our company was having a 50-70% failure rate on upgrades. Most of the training dept was ex USAF. During an FAA audit the training dept was red flagged. Heard the inspectors said that if the failure rate was greater than 5% then there is a problem with the training dept. Dim memories of more checking than training happening in those days. Things got gradually better after the FAA keeping a closer eye.
kika
kika
Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer
What exactly are you basing this on?
AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum.
It is a rumour network after all but there is a lot of smoke out there.
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At what point do we actually believe we are being treated fairly? You suck it up and perform, if not your scrubbed, some woke people these days think different. It’s ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by dr dre
AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum..
If the high washout rates are correct there is something wrong in 717 town though.
