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717 NJS - What's Going On?

Old 21st Nov 2022, 22:53
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717 NJS - What's Going On?

Can anyone shed some light on what's happening at NJS? I thought they used to be pretty organised and knew several guys and girls there that were good operators. But recently I've heard lots of rumours, each more scary than the last!

Two engines going bang in flight in as many weeks. An RTO in Melbourne. A fumes event. Flight after flight cancelled due no FOs. One base that has lost more than half the FO complement in a matter of weeks. Aircraft returning to the bay frequently. C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.

Have I been given poor information, or is it really that bad?

Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time ... how will they crew and maintain 20x A220s? Management's "strategic imperatives" on the A220 contract seems like it was a great win ... for Atlas.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 00:46
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Alan told CASA that new airplanes don't need maintenance so it's all fixed.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 01:23
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I still maintain that they will never operate the A220.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 01:55
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time .
It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 02:11
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Originally Posted by pinkpanther1 View Post
From what I've heard the command upgrade failure rate is nearly 70%
Surely you are taking the piss? Sounds toxic.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 02:37
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Apparently they’re no longer doing cyclics as it’s all covered on the line.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 02:38
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
Surely you are taking the piss? Sounds toxic.
Multiple sources in the other thread have confirmed as much, exactly for the reason you described.

Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.

Ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 02:51
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Multiple sources in the other thread have confirmed as much, exactly for the reason you described.

Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.

Maybe some ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.
But WHY are they doing this? What’s the psychology behind it?

Is it as simple as ex RAAF jocks who want to convince themselves they’re still important? Has due process been done putting these people in these positions?

Surely if 70% of people who have been flying the jet successfully for years can’t change seat, it points at an organisational and training problem and CASA should be asking questions.

Imagine if you had a driving school where 70% of candidates couldn’t pass their driving test. They would have their training accreditation cancelled immediately.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 03:09
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
spot on.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 03:17
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But WHY are they doing this? What’s the psychology behind it?
Sounds like has-beens and egos. Once was cool and the world looked up to them as fast jet pilots. Now just regular civilian plebs flying regular passenger jets on a mediocre regional wage. How do you prop yourself up? Take it out on the next generation coming in below you by setting some unachievable top-gun standard.

Then stroke yourself as you tell your subordinates what an awesome life you once lived flying jets and being deployed somewhere. I don't think these guys realise that the rest of us don't care or aren't impressed.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 03:39
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Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 03:48
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?
Really? Considering the 717 operation has been established for some years, hasn’t been undergoing rapid recent expansion which would discount FOs coming up for command unprepared. You have long term FOs flying those jets for years in that environment who now are not being passed on command training. If that’s genuinely the case then it shows the C&T staff are incompetent trainers straight up, if you can’t train 70% of long term FOs to command standard the problem is with trainer, not the student.

My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.

But as was alluded to on the other thread it may just be the C&T staff freeing up space for their ex RAAF mates to come in as DEC, skipping seniority. If that’s the case absolutely horrible.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 03:53
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If that’s genuinely the case then it shows the C&T staff are incompetent trainers straight up, if you can’t train 70% of long term FOs to command standard the problem is with trainer, not the student.
Would strongly agree with that. Either the company is employing dud pilots from the start or the training department is terrible. CASA should be taking note of 70% fail rates and asking questions on top of the maintenance issues in play. 70% failing means they have been operating on line with insufficient knowledge to take over should the left pilot drop dead, after all that's what part of their duty is. If you can't just slide over to the left after a few years on type then you need to look at yourself, if it's happening enmasse then the company training system is broken.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 04:06
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post

C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.
Ahhh then it all makes sense. Generally it’s all downhill from that.

I worked with a CP once who refused to hire them. Some will know who I’m taking about.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 05:01
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
Im not aware of any other group AOC that has a C&T environment even remotely like NJS. No one else in the group has a failure rate even close to this. Might be time to clean out the training department……
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 06:34
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.
What exactly are you basing this on? This thread has 100% rumour and innuendo and practically zero facts. Who in the world has a mentality of “the more people we fail….”? Last time I checked we were in the 20s, that is 2020s.

What makes you believe the RAAF (or any military organisation in the World) doesn’t want a system which, through testing, selection and training achieves a 100% pass rate?
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 06:59
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Years ago, whilst working for a US outfit. Our company was having a 50-70% failure rate on upgrades. Most of the training dept was ex USAF. During an FAA audit the training dept was red flagged. Heard the inspectors said that if the failure rate was greater than 5% then there is a problem with the training dept. Dim memories of more checking than training happening in those days. Things got gradually better after the FAA keeping a closer eye.

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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 07:00
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
What exactly are you basing this on?
There a report from the RAAF here on page 27 showing pilot course failure rates of 25-35%. A statement from a former RAAF pilot stating his course failure rate was 50%. Another 50% figure quoted here. The mentality was anecdotal from discussion with some ex RAAF pilots.

AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum.

It is a rumour network after all but there is a lot of smoke out there.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 09:48
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At what point do we actually believe we are being treated fairly? You suck it up and perform, if not your scrubbed, some woke people these days think different. It’s ridiculous.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 11:04
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum..
Well, what else would they say in any case? Coming up through the ranks in any career one always feel hard done by when passed up for promotion. Be it office, retail, transport, whatever.

If the high washout rates are correct there is something wrong in 717 town though.

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