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Qantas loses $860 million last year.

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Qantas loses $860 million last year.

Old 27th Aug 2022, 23:45
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Originally Posted by AerialPerspective View Post

I believe you mentioned Rex. Haha, did you forget the $100-200M they were 'gifted' to save their regional routes by the previous government, which they then used to launch a 737 operation?? All this nonsense about Qantas being a Job-Keeper 'recipient'. They didn't pocket that money, it was paid on to the staff. It's not like the staff went with no pay and the JobKeeper was just put in a Swiss Bank Account........... I know of people that were terminated after JobKeeper started who the companies could have happily kept employing but they decided to downsize on the basis that there was not going to be a prospect of that work for some time.

Do you really think airlines and other companies should just keep paying people and go bankrupt?? The other 'support' was in reduced or waived fees but you had to be operating to be eligible to save by not paying them and everyone got them.
In Rex's instance they had two states with government subsidised routes which were virtually untouched by covid, so yes the company pocketed the difference in their wages. In the other states Rex worked the pilots to the sum of jobkeeper. For example a captain would work 3 shifts in a fortnight when JK was 1200, their wages were cost free to the company. Demand was outstripping supply with full flights. As JK was reduced so was the frequency of flights to ensure wages were free. Ticket prices were upwards of $500 but the flights ran near full. The company also made pilots 'request/beg' to have a second job to allow them to live above the poverty line. During this time the board gave themselves 20% payrises and the company posted a net positive cash flow for the 20/21 FY.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 00:03
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From what I understand of subsidised routes they only 'top up' costs to ensure there is no losses on the route. The same applied for the DANS/RANS program you were given cash on the basis of falling below the quoted level on the route, ie airline puts in a cost for the route to be operated, funds were allocated to fund that route based on cost submitted and then paid on any shortfall for any particular flight. WA routes are non subsidised they are just controlled to only allow a single operator. How Rex handled JK funds I have no idea, that's secret squirrel business, same as what QF did with the funds, QF also operating a lot of DANS, and government charters at inflated rates during the pandemic, not to mention profitable freight operations.

It also has to be said that AJ rejected the notion of subsidies directly to kill off VA, there is no other reason he would have done so. Once VA fell over QF put out the hat and dug into the trough as everyone else did. At the same time Rex took the $60m handout on offer, and why not, gov offers, take it, its good corporate governance. Not use a pandemic to sink the opposition and then secretly take three times the amount afterwards. A lot is made of the subsidies, they were asked for/offered and the government accepted, at least the rex numbers were out there in public for all to see. Its quite obvious QF has hidden those numbers because of the issues at the start where they claimed VA and QF would not need subsidies.

Who is the worse operator here, the one that has done everything in public? Or the one that got caught out by the press passing $2billion in assistance calling out the others for dipping?

One thing that will be interesting is that Labour said they would have bailed out airlines in need such as VA. So they might just be challenged by that within their term.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 00:37
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On the plus side, with QF/JQ losing so much money in the past couple of years I cant see $1 in tax for the next decade or so.......
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 00:53
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One thing that will be interesting is that Labour said they would have bailed out airlines in need such as VA. So they might just be challenged by that within their term.
So to be absolutely clear, you believe Qantas will require government assistance to prevent its failure during this term of government?

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Old 28th Aug 2022, 01:01
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Only a remote possibility based on what the economy does etc... pretty much all players have the ability to go south in the next few years if things don't go as planned. QF seems to me to be in a very precarious position with not a lot needing to go wrong to push it into the abyss. First and foremost it has no equity partner, so unless the gov caves in to ownership rules it has to generate all its own cash and savings. If it did go free of restraint to the market you might see a lot of interest and that would change things significantly, at present no one really wants 10% of a flooded pie with no real control. I cant see J* receiving much interest in sell off either at present, its high loss and reliance on QF infrastructure would make many large investors wary.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 01:22
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A few telling things in the regional operations, the Dash-8s in particular have hit a huge reliability wall, what is causing it is not clear, whether its lack of spend on spares, or the aircraft themselves are past the magic airframe time or just a fleet spread too thin, who knows. But it is severely affecting them in the regional market. A lot of cash and possibly fleet replacement is on the cards. Again comparing to Rex which has a whole setup aimed at keeping the SAAB flying and keeps them pretty reliable for the age, the QF Dashes are looking and feeling old and breeaking down far too regularly. At least the domestic product is OK, although the Melbourne terminal being a perpetual construction site compared to T4 at the moment is not helping. Still huge cancellations and delays at times, but at least VA is not doing a lot better on that front, and Rex is too small to make a dent yet,
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 01:39
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
So to be absolutely clear, you believe Qantas will require government assistance to prevent its failure during this term of government?
10-20% fare increase
Reduction in domestic capacity to attain 95% loads

Either leaves it vulnerable to competition from VA, REX, Bonza etc
Or
It will generate a ton of profit to bring it back from the brink

Perhaps they should have a look at REX for some answers as well
Aside from throwing metal at routes that lose money to try to hurt REX, which they should pull out of today...
Aside from trying to compete with REX jet and discounting seats around REX jet flights
Both of the above will be costing a bomb

REX recently withdrew from some unviable routes and redeployed SAABs to QLink routes to fight back, ending up a good win for REX
Pelican stepped in to many of these vacated routes
QLink could easily walk away from or cut back on over serviced loss making regional routes and let them trickle down to other operators, redeploying Q400 to more suitable routes, or selling off the frames and training up the crews for mainline, addressing the crew shortages

Make no mistake, there will be no bail out
QF/JQ are aiming for 70% market share, nowhere in the world in a similar domestic market does this exist
If I were PM I would let QF/JQ fall over and you would see a bunch of new airlines step in and take over
It would be a bloodbath for a few years until stuff sorted itself out, but you would be left with 6-8 survivors all with 10-30% market share, great competition with keen pricing
VA, REX Bonza and perhaps a re-focused Alliance would be the 4 top dogs with 3 or so more surviving newbies
VA would quickly step in and take over international routes and likely become more focused on international routes

A world without QF/JQ IMO would be a much better place
More work choices
More choices for passengers
Much better than we have now a QF/JQ wanting 70% (really 100%) of the market to satisfy shareholders with VA along for the ride for perceived competition / opposition when the pair of them would much prefer that the 2 airline agreement was brought back so they could fix prices and go back to the work practises of the 70s
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 01:56
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So what you are saying is you want all airlines here foreign owned and funded?
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 02:14
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Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results?

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Old 28th Aug 2022, 02:24
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Originally Posted by Mr_App View Post
So what you are saying is you want all airlines here foreign owned and funded?
Does it really matter where the profits go?
So long as they pay tax here, who gives a toss....
A taxable profit is far better than QF/JQ are paying, or have been paying over the past decade
Isn't QF like 49% foreign owned anyway
Isn't VA fully foreign owned
What's the difference, the tax payer is unlikely to bail out a foreign owned airline plus, with 6 or so players, there would be no need to if one fell over
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 02:32
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You really hate QF Deano. Did you bomb out on an interview or something?! Then left with only Rex to work for!
Wanting such a large group to keel over so more $hit carriers could enter are pretty savage comments to make!
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 02:44
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results?
Isn't money in the bank all the poor punters not able to get their money back when flights were cancelled during covid and a ton of $50 vouchers, QF/JQ must regard this as payment in advance for future flights, this money in the band will soon disappear

As for the share price
Pre pandemic it was between $5.50 and $7.30 where as now it is still at a tad over $5.15
So for a speculator a 6 month gain may look attractive on the HOPE that everything goes right
I'd be more willing to have a punt on REX though at around $1.40 pre covid and pretty much the same today, REX is kicking goals and winning plenty of battles against QF/JQ

QF/JQ needs to get
Their OTP up to scratch
Luggage to it's destinations
QLink and their Q400s sorted
Pilots and cabin crew into their birds
Their fares to a realistic level as their exorbitant fares are pizzing travellers off
Their fuel hedging right
Their call centres (customer service) right
Stop with the attitude, you paid for a ticket, oh you cant fly or we cancelled the flight, here is cents in the dollar voucher that you can use on like 5% of available seats

QF/JQ have a ton of work to do.....

Again there may be a quick dollar to be made on buy-sell shares, but you'd do better buying crypto
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 02:47
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Originally Posted by SHVC View Post
You really hate QF Deano. Did you bomb out on an interview or something?! Then left with only Rex to work for!
Wanting such a large group to keel over so more $hit carriers could enter are pretty savage comments to make!
Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 03:01
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results?
A quote from your article aboveWhile Qantas isn’t a business I’d make one of my biggest portfolio positions, I’d be happy to buy some shares at the current Qantas share price thanks to the strong and improving outlook.

Should you invest $1,000 in Qantas Airways Limited right now?



Before you consider Qantas Airways Limited, you'll want to hear this. Motley Fool Investing expert Scott Phillips just revealed what he believes are the 5 best stocks for investors to buy right now... and Qantas Airways Limited wasn't one of them
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 03:24
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Originally Posted by Deano969 View Post
Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN
Ah definitely a disgruntled interviewee that couldn’t pass. Don’t worry Rex have their issues they’re bad if not worse in some aspects on how they treat their staff remember that nasty letter, oh how you pick and choose. .

but hey, I don’t mind Rex, I just hate JS and his BS I wish he would fade away as he has had his time. To wish they go by the way AN, never in a million yrs would I ever wish that on a company that employees ppl in my country. You are a sorry sad person to have the thoughts you do. I hate to break it to you tho, QF/JQ and rest of the group you hate so much will not be going anywhere anytime soon, they will fix the issues get back to where they need to be and will still be around in 10-20 or even 100yrs.

Keep doing those SHL and practice interviews you will get there one day, I wish you to succeed.

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Old 28th Aug 2022, 03:42
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Originally Posted by SHVC View Post
Ah definitely a disgruntled interviewee that couldn’t pass. Don’t worry Rex have their issues they’re bad if not worse in some aspects on how they treat their staff remember that nasty letter, oh how you pick and choose. .

but hey, I don’t mind Rex, I just hate JS and his BS I wish he would fade away as he has had his time. To wish they go by the way AN, never in a million yrs would I ever wish that on a company that employees ppl in my country. You are a sorry sad person to have the thoughts you do. I hate to break it to you though, QF/JQ and rest of the group you hate so much will not be going anywhere anytime soon, they will fix the issues get back to where they need to be and will still be around in 10-20 or even 100yrs.

Keep doing those SHL and practice interviews you will get there one day, I wish you to succeed.
In 10-20 years QF/JQ will be an airline in name only, if they survive
Mainline and international will eventually be outsourced along with admin
Network will end up with the 320/1 and it will become Q City Link
NJS will get the 220s
Unsure about international, but this will be the last to go, but in the short term you will see more and more foreign crews, like their new AKL JFK route
Engineering can't even get 3% over the line when we have 5% minimum inflation, so kiss them goodbye shortly as well
Ground staff already gonski
You'd have to be Irish to know your job is secure

PS fixed your spelling
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 04:10
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Originally Posted by Deano969 View Post
Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN
They have used 457 Visas before. 10% of the saab pilots quit in one week less than a month ago. They'll be doing roadshows overseas again soon and begging the government for immigrants. You'll also find a fair few Singaporean apprentices in Wagga. LKH literally threatened to shut down all the east coast Saab bases because of a measly request for matching pilots pay to CPI.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 04:21
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A world without QF/JQ IMO would be a much better place
More work choices
More choices for passengers
Much better than we have now a QF/JQ wanting 70% (really 100%) of the market to satisfy shareholders with VA along for the ride for perceived competition / opposition when the pair of them would much prefer that the 2 airline agreement was brought back so they could fix prices and go back to the work practises of the 70s
Good one. Let’s take away the last carrier in the country with legacy conditions. Let Rex and Alliance pay become the new norm to aim for.

Rather drive a bus for that money.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 04:30
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Not sure I'd be investing in a business that has negative equity right now.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 04:57
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Not sure I'd be predicting the victory of a company with $42m cash in the bank vs one with $3.3b either.

Or have a gander at their FY investor presentations. QF's is quite professional, detailed and in depth. Rex's looks like it was put together by some high school students, is very bare and barely mentions the company's financial status.
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