Qantas Fuel Mayday
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
You're right that Australia has quite different alternate requirements, but aircraft all over the world end up in commit-to-destinaion situations which ammount to the same thing.
Originally Posted by BuzzBox
Would you care to elaborate?
No reflection on this Qantas crew , I’m sure it was a perfectly legal flight and it was handled professionally with safe outcome . Well done ! I’m happy to be operating in a world where alternates are carried on every flight .
Island Reserve maybe ? If they could take the fuel ? Having worked out of Perth I got nothing but respect for WA pilots , highly skilled , smart pilots . It’s not an easy destination , 727 captain 40 years ago dropped alternate as he could see Perth airport , license suspended . 146 , RJ’s stretched !
maybe this mayday call is a trigger, for me .
ramble over , stay safe !
Last edited by KAPAC; 24th Jul 2022 at 15:28.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Posts: 4,719
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
10 Posts
Originally Posted by KAPAC
If I understand your statement correctly ? Airlines that require an alternate for every flight some how end up flying to their destination with no alternate fuel , same as happens in Australia ? Operations I’ve been involved with the captains are very reluctant to drop the alternate even if they legally can . Obviously if your in the circuit , no delays , your not going to divert because your about to go below min divert . In this situation the alternate could be dropped to accept the 15 min traffic hold knowing there is 2 runways and little chance of further delays .
No reflection on this Qantas crew , I’m sure it was a perfectly legal flight and it was handled professionally with safe outcome . Well done ! I’m happy to be operating in a world where alternates are carried on every flight .
Island Reserve maybe ? If they could take the fuel ? Having worked out of Perth I got nothing but respect for WA pilots , highly skilled , smart pilots . It’s not an easy destination , 727 captain 40 years ago dropped alternate as he could see Perth airport , license suspended . 146 , RJ’s stretched !
maybe this mayday call is a trigger, for me .
ramble over , stay safe !
No reflection on this Qantas crew , I’m sure it was a perfectly legal flight and it was handled professionally with safe outcome . Well done ! I’m happy to be operating in a world where alternates are carried on every flight .
Island Reserve maybe ? If they could take the fuel ? Having worked out of Perth I got nothing but respect for WA pilots , highly skilled , smart pilots . It’s not an easy destination , 727 captain 40 years ago dropped alternate as he could see Perth airport , license suspended . 146 , RJ’s stretched !
maybe this mayday call is a trigger, for me .
ramble over , stay safe !
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Posts: 4,719
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
10 Posts
Originally Posted by nose,cabin
“commit to destination”,Alternate fuel
You're right that Australia has quite different alternate requirements, BUT
Alternate Airport,
fuel calculation includes missed approach at the destination airport, ( both engines operating,)
, complete the missed approach procedure, climb, cruise, descent to alternate airport, and 15 minutes reserve.
No taxi fuel at destination,
When ATC holding is required
The latest TTD time is provided to ATC.
This becomes the diversion time allocated by
ATC.
Clearances are ready and issued prior to diversion time.
Never loose plan B.
You're right that Australia has quite different alternate requirements, BUT
Alternate Airport,
fuel calculation includes missed approach at the destination airport, ( both engines operating,)
, complete the missed approach procedure, climb, cruise, descent to alternate airport, and 15 minutes reserve.
No taxi fuel at destination,
When ATC holding is required
The latest TTD time is provided to ATC.
This becomes the diversion time allocated by
ATC.
Clearances are ready and issued prior to diversion time.
Never loose plan B.
Out of interest….
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
I ask this as I had a discussion with a friend many years ago about his airline's fuel policy/requirements for various destinations. He advised that if operating from (say) Singapore to Melbourne, they would have Avalon as a planned alternate and little else above the statutory requirements. He also mentioned that they were strongly discouraged from adding any more than planned fuel, to the point that he had F/Os 'reporting' him for adding what he believed was carefully considered additional fuel. We agreed that feeling free to add our own reasonable additional fuel - without pressure from the flight ops department - was a better place to be than having a pre-planned amount and a management that discouraged a crew from making decisions based on experience and practical knowledge.
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
I ask this as I had a discussion with a friend many years ago about his airline's fuel policy/requirements for various destinations. He advised that if operating from (say) Singapore to Melbourne, they would have Avalon as a planned alternate and little else above the statutory requirements. He also mentioned that they were strongly discouraged from adding any more than planned fuel, to the point that he had F/Os 'reporting' him for adding what he believed was carefully considered additional fuel. We agreed that feeling free to add our own reasonable additional fuel - without pressure from the flight ops department - was a better place to be than having a pre-planned amount and a management that discouraged a crew from making decisions based on experience and practical knowledge.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: australia
Age: 73
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry topic drift,
I am thinking SE Asia during the burn off season which is unique.
Smoke haze for a month.
Visibility 300 meters most of the day.
(unlikely in Perth but it is a possibility with the summer approaching.)
Some airlines cleared for approach by the tower,
fly the ILS when tower report 300 meters in smoke haze.
We were instructed by our company to enter the hold and wait for tower ATC report the ILS minimum 800 meters visibility.
Sometimes that happened before TTD ( diversion time) sometimes no.
This can become a high stress cockpit,
see crash report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda...sia_Flight_152
I am thinking SE Asia during the burn off season which is unique.
Smoke haze for a month.
Visibility 300 meters most of the day.
(unlikely in Perth but it is a possibility with the summer approaching.)
Some airlines cleared for approach by the tower,
fly the ILS when tower report 300 meters in smoke haze.
We were instructed by our company to enter the hold and wait for tower ATC report the ILS minimum 800 meters visibility.
Sometimes that happened before TTD ( diversion time) sometimes no.
This can become a high stress cockpit,
see crash report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda...sia_Flight_152
Originally Posted by C441
Out of interest….
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
Airlines have different policies w.r.t extra fuel, but in 20 years as a wide-body Captain I added extra fuel on plenty of occasions and was never questioned.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 24th Jul 2022 at 23:23.
Originally Posted by C441
Out of interest….
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
The amount of flights into Perth compared to the number of diversions would be extremely low and hence most get away with it. However as mentioned a few times above Perth should be treated with respect. Cavok yet get there and the crosswind is serving up a lovely turbulent experience, that early morning surprise fog that hangs around, blah blah blah.
I fill the tanks to max available fuel pretty much every Perth and still sometimes I don’t reckon that’s enough! Airlines do push the limits of certain aircrafts capabilities.
Originally Posted by KAPAC
Obviously if your in the circuit , no delays , your not going to divert because your about to go below min divert . In this situation the alternate could be dropped to accept the 15 min traffic hold knowing there is 2 runways and little chance of further delays .!
Originally Posted by BuzzBox
So what would you do if you’re on descent to a destination with only one runway, you encounter unexpected delays and you don’t have any ‘extra’ fuel above that required to divert to your alternate, which also has only one runway? Divert or commit to the destination and use the alternate fuel for holding?
Can only do the best with the information one has at the time.
Something like a FOD inspection being carried out following an incident of sorts and it might be prudent to bug out, a delay due sequencing of priorty traffic less so.
At least carrying alternate fuel provides the option.
Originally Posted by BuzzBox
So what would you do if you’re on descent to a destination with only one runway, you encounter unexpected delays and you don’t have any ‘extra’ fuel above that required to divert to your alternate, which also has only one runway? Divert or commit to the destination and use the alternate fuel for holding?
Originally Posted by KAPAC
Having an alternate gives options . I understand your saying if I divert to a single runway alternate I’m now in same position as if I’m flying to a destination with no alternate but before I divert I got 2 airports up my sleeve , destination and alternate . Gives me options if a problem arises as I’m on descent to destination .
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
In a narrow body 737/320 not many choices if coming from SE Asia, Geraldton & Kalgoorlie are the two main ones and both do not have international facilities. I remember hearing of a Scoot 320 diverting to Kalgoorlie only to have no stairs available or was it no fuel?
Now, the real issue here is why, after all these years, Perth does not have a parallel 03/21 runway? When 03 is in use, 06 always seem to be unavailable as well, limiting arrivals to only one runway thereby causing the backlog and ATC issuing delaying action for aircraft arrivals. Always carry extra fuel when 03 is in use at Perth if you plan to arrive during peak hour traffic.
Originally Posted by smiling monkey
Now, the real issue here is why, after all these years, Perth does not have a parallel 03/21 runway?
"The need for a second parallel runway at Perth Airport was first identified in 1973 and has been included in Perth Airport Master Plans dating back to the 1980s."
Approval granted for Perth's New Runway
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Smaller Antipode
Age: 88
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Million years ago ..... VC-10 ex-London overflew Boston en route New York, and on approaching JFK was given a holding time that would have meant landing with less then the minimum required on arrival, and certainly less then required to divert to any suitable alternate, so immediately diverted back to Boston, where ...... the WX had deteriorated due snow, and was way below any possible landing minima. Now no diversion fuel left - what to do ? Emergency landing at a USAF base was approved, and succeeded. Phew ! (Nb, not me )
Originally Posted by smiling monkey
I do recall an Air Asia Indonesia A320 diverting to Kalgoorlie a few years ago due to excessive holding time due weather in Perth at night. Their biggest issue was not knowing KGI has pilot activated lighting and their unfamiliarity with operating with PAL. If I remember correctly, a local aircraft enroute to the east coast from Perth helped with keying the lights for their arrival.
.
.
Resource rich state like WA that provides %40 of Australians income and relies on Aviation , it’s the most isolated city on the planet and it can’t afford to upgrade its main airport or leave lights on during the night at a remote alternate .
It can "afford it", but why would it do it? It's making a motza for the owners as is, and that's all that counts.
Transport used to be an essential service (like energy). Now it's a 'market'. And when you have a monopoly...
Same reason for Sydney KSA being a third world shit hole.
Transport used to be an essential service (like energy). Now it's a 'market'. And when you have a monopoly...
Same reason for Sydney KSA being a third world shit hole.
Honolulu slipped into the Pacific Ocean did it?
