Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Qantas Fuel Mayday

Old 24th Jul 2022, 11:53
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz View Post
You're right that Australia has quite different alternate requirements, but aircraft all over the world end up in commit-to-destinaion situations which ammount to the same thing.
Respectfully disagree .
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 14:29
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Originally Posted by KAPAC View Post
Respectfully disagree .
Would you care to elaborate?
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 15:01
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
Would you care to elaborate?
If I understand your statement correctly ? Airlines that require an alternate for every flight some how end up flying to their destination with no alternate fuel , same as happens in Australia ? Operations Iíve been involved with the captains are very reluctant to drop the alternate even if they legally can . Obviously if your in the circuit , no delays , your not going to divert because your about to go below min divert . In this situation the alternate could be dropped to accept the 15 min traffic hold knowing there is 2 runways and little chance of further delays .
No reflection on this Qantas crew , Iím sure it was a perfectly legal flight and it was handled professionally with safe outcome . Well done ! Iím happy to be operating in a world where alternates are carried on every flight .
Island Reserve maybe ? If they could take the fuel ? Having worked out of Perth I got nothing but respect for WA pilots , highly skilled , smart pilots . Itís not an easy destination , 727 captain 40 years ago dropped alternate as he could see Perth airport , license suspended . 146 , RJís stretched !
maybe this mayday call is a trigger, for me .
ramble over , stay safe !

Last edited by KAPAC; 24th Jul 2022 at 15:28.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 20:40
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Originally Posted by KAPAC View Post
If I understand your statement correctly ? Airlines that require an alternate for every flight some how end up flying to their destination with no alternate fuel , same as happens in Australia ? Operations Iíve been involved with the captains are very reluctant to drop the alternate even if they legally can . Obviously if your in the circuit , no delays , your not going to divert because your about to go below min divert . In this situation the alternate could be dropped to accept the 15 min traffic hold knowing there is 2 runways and little chance of further delays .
No reflection on this Qantas crew , Iím sure it was a perfectly legal flight and it was handled professionally with safe outcome . Well done ! Iím happy to be operating in a world where alternates are carried on every flight .
Island Reserve maybe ? If they could take the fuel ? Having worked out of Perth I got nothing but respect for WA pilots , highly skilled , smart pilots . Itís not an easy destination , 727 captain 40 years ago dropped alternate as he could see Perth airport , license suspended . 146 , RJís stretched !
maybe this mayday call is a trigger, for me .
ramble over , stay safe !
"Reluctant" doesn't mean "Can't"- you even agree it is legal. If you are carrying an alternate, but unexpected delays at the destination mean you need to use that fuel, you can. After all, you are carrying only enough to land at the alternate with 30 minutes final reserve- if the expected delay means you will land with MORE than that at the destination pax have paid to get to, why woulkd you not?
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 20:41
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Originally Posted by nose,cabin View Post
ďcommit to destinationĒ,Alternate fuel

You're right that Australia has quite different alternate requirements, BUT

Alternate Airport,

fuel calculation includes missed approach at the destination airport, ( both engines operating,)

, complete the missed approach procedure, climb, cruise, descent to alternate airport, and 15 minutes reserve.

No taxi fuel at destination,


When ATC holding is required

The latest TTD time is provided to ATC.

This becomes the diversion time allocated by

ATC.

Clearances are ready and issued prior to diversion time.

Never loose plan B.
Only when an alternate is required, which is the small minority of flights in Ausrtralia
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 22:01
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Out of interestÖ.
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?

I ask this as I had a discussion with a friend many years ago about his airline's fuel policy/requirements for various destinations. He advised that if operating from (say) Singapore to Melbourne, they would have Avalon as a planned alternate and little else above the statutory requirements. He also mentioned that they were strongly discouraged from adding any more than planned fuel, to the point that he had F/Os 'reporting' him for adding what he believed was carefully considered additional fuel. We agreed that feeling free to add our own reasonable additional fuel - without pressure from the flight ops department - was a better place to be than having a pre-planned amount and a management that discouraged a crew from making decisions based on experience and practical knowledge.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 22:06
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Sorry topic drift,

I am thinking SE Asia during the burn off season which is unique.

Smoke haze for a month.

Visibility 300 meters most of the day.

(unlikely in Perth but it is a possibility with the summer approaching.)

Some airlines cleared for approach by the tower,
fly the ILS when tower report 300 meters in smoke haze.

We were instructed by our company to enter the hold and wait for tower ATC report the ILS minimum 800 meters visibility.

Sometimes that happened before TTD ( diversion time) sometimes no.

This can become a high stress cockpit,

see crash report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda...sia_Flight_152






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Old 24th Jul 2022, 22:27
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
Out of interest….
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
The airline where I worked considers Perth to be an isolated airport for its wide-body operations (no acceptable alternate within 1 hour 45 mins of the destination). If the weather forecast was above the alternate minima we would carry island reserve fuel (two-hour's holding fuel, at normal cruise consumption, overhead the destination airport). Additional advisory traffic holding fuel was not required. If we were to need an alternate the two nearest alternates we could plan were Adelaide or Den Pasar (Bali).

Airlines have different policies w.r.t extra fuel, but in 20 years as a wide-body Captain I added extra fuel on plenty of occasions and was never questioned.

Last edited by BuzzBox; 24th Jul 2022 at 23:23.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 22:45
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
Out of interestÖ.
Can those overseas operators reading this thread advise the alternate that their airline would usually plan, based on a VMC forecast, for Perth? Would they carry any advisory traffic holding fuel on top of that?
In a narrow body 737/320 not many choices if coming from SE Asia, Geraldton & Kalgoorlie are the two main ones and both do not have international facilities. I remember hearing of a Scoot 320 diverting to Kalgoorlie only to have no stairs available or was it no fuel?

The amount of flights into Perth compared to the number of diversions would be extremely low and hence most get away with it. However as mentioned a few times above Perth should be treated with respect. Cavok yet get there and the crosswind is serving up a lovely turbulent experience, that early morning surprise fog that hangs around, blah blah blah.

I fill the tanks to max available fuel pretty much every Perth and still sometimes I donít reckon thatís enough! Airlines do push the limits of certain aircrafts capabilities.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 02:32
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Originally Posted by KAPAC View Post
Obviously if your in the circuit , no delays , your not going to divert because your about to go below min divert . In this situation the alternate could be dropped to accept the 15 min traffic hold knowing there is 2 runways and little chance of further delays .!
So what would you do if youíre on descent to a destination with only one runway, you encounter unexpected delays and you donít have any Ďextraí fuel above that required to divert to your alternate, which also has only one runway? Divert or commit to the destination and use the alternate fuel for holding?
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 02:49
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
So what would you do if youíre on descent to a destination with only one runway, you encounter unexpected delays and you donít have any Ďextraí fuel above that required to divert to your alternate, which also has only one runway? Divert or commit to the destination and use the alternate fuel for holding?
It would require a judgment call based on the reasons for the 'unexpected' delay.

Can only do the best with the information one has at the time.
Something like a FOD inspection being carried out following an incident of sorts and it might be prudent to bug out, a delay due sequencing of priorty traffic less so.
At least carrying alternate fuel provides the option.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 03:20
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
So what would you do if youíre on descent to a destination with only one runway, you encounter unexpected delays and you donít have any Ďextraí fuel above that required to divert to your alternate, which also has only one runway? Divert or commit to the destination and use the alternate fuel for holding?
Whatís the delay ? If itís a 210 thatís done a wheels up at Devonport Iíd divert to Launceston . If itís because there is 2-3 aircraft arriving similar time Iíd slow down and consider dropping alternate . Itís up to the captain on the day . Having an alternate gives options . I understand your saying if I divert to a single runway alternate Iím now in same position as if Iím flying to a destination with no alternate but before I divert I got 2 airports up my sleeve , destination and alternate . Gives me options if a problem arises as Iím on descent to destination .
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 04:05
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Originally Posted by KAPAC View Post
Having an alternate gives options . I understand your saying if I divert to a single runway alternate Iím now in same position as if Iím flying to a destination with no alternate but before I divert I got 2 airports up my sleeve , destination and alternate . Gives me options if a problem arises as Iím on descent to destination .
Absolutely. I only asked the question because you previously said the alternate could be dropped ďknowing there is 2 runwaysÖĒ. There is a surprising number of people out there that seem to believe an aircraft must divert in the circumstances I described. and they use that belief to justify carrying extra fuel, ďjust in caseĒ.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 04:09
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
In a narrow body 737/320 not many choices if coming from SE Asia, Geraldton & Kalgoorlie are the two main ones and both do not have international facilities. I remember hearing of a Scoot 320 diverting to Kalgoorlie only to have no stairs available or was it no fuel?
I do recall an Air Asia Indonesia A320 diverting to Kalgoorlie a few years ago due to excessive holding time due weather in Perth at night. Their biggest issue was not knowing KGI has pilot activated lighting and their unfamiliarity with operating with PAL. If I remember correctly, a local aircraft enroute to the east coast from Perth helped with keying the lights for their arrival.

Now, the real issue here is why, after all these years, Perth does not have a parallel 03/21 runway? When 03 is in use, 06 always seem to be unavailable as well, limiting arrivals to only one runway thereby causing the backlog and ATC issuing delaying action for aircraft arrivals. Always carry extra fuel when 03 is in use at Perth if you plan to arrive during peak hour traffic.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 04:47
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Originally Posted by smiling monkey View Post
Now, the real issue here is why, after all these years, Perth does not have a parallel 03/21 runway?
Munday Swamp heritage site is the answer. Environmental and heritage studies and other blah have reduced the proposed parallel from 3800m to 3000m and no doubt delayed everything by a thousand years.

"The need for a second parallel runway at Perth Airport was first identified in 1973 and has been included in Perth Airport Master Plans dating back to the 1980s."

Approval granted for Perth's New Runway
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 05:40
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Million years ago ..... VC-10 ex-London overflew Boston en route New York, and on approaching JFK was given a holding time that would have meant landing with less then the minimum required on arrival, and certainly less then required to divert to any suitable alternate, so immediately diverted back to Boston, where ...... the WX had deteriorated due snow, and was way below any possible landing minima. Now no diversion fuel left - what to do ? Emergency landing at a USAF base was approved, and succeeded. Phew ! (Nb, not me )
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 06:17
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Originally Posted by smiling monkey View Post
I do recall an Air Asia Indonesia A320 diverting to Kalgoorlie a few years ago due to excessive holding time due weather in Perth at night. Their biggest issue was not knowing KGI has pilot activated lighting and their unfamiliarity with operating with PAL. If I remember correctly, a local aircraft enroute to the east coast from Perth helped with keying the lights for their arrival.
.
I always thought it was astounding in a supposed 1st world country like Australia that all these airports have notoriously unreliable PAL. It seems possible for the councils etc to keep the street lights on every night without a problem but can't seem to keep runway lights on all night?
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 06:37
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Resource rich state like WA that provides %40 of Australians income and relies on Aviation , itís the most isolated city on the planet and it canít afford to upgrade its main airport or leave lights on during the night at a remote alternate .
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 06:52
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It can "afford it", but why would it do it? It's making a motza for the owners as is, and that's all that counts.

Transport used to be an essential service (like energy). Now it's a 'market'. And when you have a monopoly...

Same reason for Sydney KSA being a third world shit hole.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 08:39
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it’s the most isolated city on the planet
This old chestnut. Honolulu slipped into the Pacific Ocean did it?
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