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Qantas Fuel Mayday

Old 27th Jul 2022, 03:16
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C441
I wonder if the airborne holding was extended to facilitate additional departures rather than due to additional arrivals? I'm not sure how arrival sequencing is impacted by departures from the same runway in Perth, but if there is say an additional few minutes between each arriving aircraft in order to get a few departures away, then reducing the airborne traffic holding in critical situations shouldn't be too hard to achieve by 'holding' a few aircraft on the ground.…..Is that too simplistic?
Interesting question and something I pondered myself. Hopefully ATSB will be looking at whether acceptance rates, decision to run/not run GDP, traffic advisories, ATC staffing in ML Centre, PH APP and PH TWR played a part.
IDK, but did QFA Operations / ASA NOC discuss switching landing times between company aircraft?
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 03:16
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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I guess when faced with deliberately landing at a minima lower than the legal one or running out of fuel and gliding to an off airport crash, I know which one I would choose.

None of the events in the past where QF landed below the legal minima, had any fuel to go anywhere else due unforecast fog. And I can guarantee an ASIR would have been submitted each time, but in all honesty apart from the Mildura event the ATSB didnt release a report as there was nothing to really report on apart from “The weatherman stuffed up”
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 03:45
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Precision Approach Categories

Most International Airlines can fly Cat3b.

All captains certified in the Simulators.every 90 days.

CAT IIIB

lower than 15 m (50 ft) or no DH

RVR less than 200 m but not less than 50

Maybe WA government should invest and upgrade Perth and the infrastructure.

Investment into the States future.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/precision-approach

Qantas are doing it already with many “Mayday auto lands.”


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Old 27th Jul 2022, 04:06
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nose,cabin
Precision Approach Categories

Most International Airlines can fly Cat3b.

All captains certified in the Simulators.every 90 days.

CAT IIIB

lower than 15 m (50 ft) or no DH

RVR less than 200 m but not less than 50

Maybe WA government should invest and upgrade Perth and the infrastructure.

Investment into the States future.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/precision-approach

Qantas are doing it already with many “Mayday auto lands.”
Agree , it’s not hard . Cat3C

See over a 100 Qantas passengers spent the night in regional terminal .


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Old 27th Jul 2022, 04:11
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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There is a CAT3B approach into Perth already? And a CAT 2SA. Rwy 21 and 03 respectively.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 04:19
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nose,cabin
Precision Approach Categories

Most International Airlines can fly Cat3b.

All captains certified in the Simulators.every 90 days.

CAT IIIB

lower than 15 m (50 ft) or no DH

RVR less than 200 m but not less than 50

Maybe WA government should invest and upgrade Perth and the infrastructure.

Investment into the States future.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/precision-approach

Qantas are doing it already with many “Mayday auto lands.”
Umm, perhaps you missed it, but a CAT III ILS was commissioned on RWY 21 at Perth about four years ago. Our CAT IIIB minima for Perth were DH = 0 and RVR = 75 m (all zones) for the Airbus A330/A350. The problem now is that some operators don't have aircraft and/or crews that are appropriately certified/qualified. More accurate forecasting would obviously help too, so that aircraft might actually be carrying the necessary alternate fuel in the event of fog.

Last edited by BuzzBox; 27th Jul 2022 at 04:36.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 04:35
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KAPAC
Agree , it’s not hard . Cat3C
CAT IIIC? I think not.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 04:56
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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It's the operators not the airport that is preventing landing in fog. I'm sure F100's and A320's can do low viz ops you just have to spend the time and money upgrading everyone.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 06:54
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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QUOTE Qantas are doing it already with many “Mayday auto lands.”

Whatever next? " Mayday DUTY time? " …at least being fatigued poses risk.
I self-taught autolands for the first time I got caught out, as I rather knew would eventually happen with the scheduling and aircraft range capability at the time.
The aeroplane didn't realise that the guy pushing its buttons did not have a piece of paper to say 'autoland qualified' , and it was probable that the autoland system itself was out of certification date. I had made a habit of letting it do its thing on nice days to develop confidence in its integrity. Not legal of course, but that's what you get when you use aircraft on routes that push limits. Doing an 'illegal' autoland is a whole lot safer than swimming in the dark amongst the great whites. On the two occasions I did this, I kept schtum rather than fill in a lot of paperwork. Statute of limitations allows me to 'fess up now.
Point being, it can't be that expensive for operators of suitable aircraft to qualify all crews in this?
For those that don’t have auto land, regular sim practice at flying down to 50 ft with 300 m viz (for emergency use only) would not go astray.
As an aside, years ago I tried to introduce the monitored approach, which could have taken a lot of the stress out of low vis ops, but the the old ex-Ansett guard howled it down as un-Australian, or something. Typical not invented here syndrome. After all, what would the Poms know about crap weather?

Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 27th Jul 2022 at 23:27.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 07:03
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Mach E Avelli our hero.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 07:08
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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And a live hero at that. Bloggsie, you will soon be old enough to be entitled to war stories too. I bet you have a few…?

Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 27th Jul 2022 at 07:34. Reason: Bloggs should respect old age pensioners
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 08:10
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed the 21 ILS is CAT3 but without knowing conditions I’m guessing it was unforecast fog? If that was the case you would need fuel to commence an approach and a full diversion, so if you didn’t have it you would need to divert early. Simple ABC of piloting. Storm in a tea cup, but I would suggest put a ****load of fuel on into Perth late nights in Winter, you can’t pick it!
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 08:12
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Here’s the minimums into PH if anyone is interested,


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Old 27th Jul 2022, 08:43
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack
Indeed the 21 ILS is CAT3 but without knowing conditions I’m guessing it was unforecast fog? If that was the case you would need fuel to commence an approach and a full diversion, so if you didn’t have it you would need to divert early. Simple ABC of piloting. Storm in a tea cup, but I would suggest put a ****load of fuel on into Perth late nights in Winter, you can’t pick it!
Not necessarily correct. If the forecast for PER was above Alternate Criteria and you had already passed PNR and you couldn’t carry an Alternate, you are entitled to continue and commence an approach.
It is a step by step assessment, always complying with the rules until you have the circumstances such that you can no longer comply with all of the rules.
eg. You carry 10’ hold for ATC and they tell you that it will be 16’ and you don’t have it.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 08:51
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If the forecast for PER was above Alternate Criteria and you had already passed PNR and you couldn’t carry an Alternate, you are entitled to continue and commence an approach.
Yes, I would have thought so, too.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 09:16
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Last night's YPPH TAFs:

TAF YPPH 261102Z 2612/2718 15005KT 9999 FEW015 BKN040 FM270100
07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK=


TAF AMD YPPH 261304Z 2613/2718 07004KT 9999 FEW008 SCT040 FM270100
07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2614/2618 0300 FG=


TAF AMD YPPH 261308Z 2613/2718 07004KT 3000 BR FEW008 SCT040 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2614/2618 0300 FG=


TAF AMD YPPH 261337Z 2613/2718 06004KT 0500 FG BKN002 FM261600
07004KT 3000 BR SCT005 FM261800 07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010
SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT
CAVOK
PROB40 2616/2618 0300 FG=


TAF AMD YPPH 261405Z 2614/2718 06004KT 4000 BR SCT003 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2615/2618 0300 FG=


TAF AMD YPPH 261426Z 2614/2718 06004KT 8000 HZ FEW003 BKN035 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 BKN040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB30 2616/2618 0300 FG=



The METARs show the fog started to appear at 1300 and lasted until some time between 1400 and 1430. The lowest vis recorded was 400 metres, at 1335.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 09:28
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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How about this one:
You are 1000’ on finals and the cloud base/visibility is above the minima and below the Alternate Criteria which you have just become aware of; you have enough fuel to carry an Alternate.
Q: Are you legally required to divert?
Q:Wouldyou?
Q: If you would, what are your reasons for diverting?
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 09:46
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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F@ck sake
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 09:47
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What are you talking about, WW? Have you just been advised of a revised TAF, or has the tower just updated the actual conditions? And why would you divert if you are carrying alternate fuel without doing an approach first (or, I should say, finishing off the approach you are on)?

No/No/N'A.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 10:03
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
What are you talking about, WW? Have you just been advised of a revised TAF, or has the tower just updated the actual conditions? And why would you divert if you are carrying alternate fuel without doing an approach first (or, I should say, finishing off the approach you are on)?

No/No/N'A.

Correct/ correct/ correct.

NB
doesnt matter how you found out. It was a question to sort the bedwetters from the legal pedantics from those who have a practical approach. Many of whom have expressed an opinion on this thread.
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