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Climb power down the ILS

Old 21st May 2022, 06:55
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Climb power down the ILS

Anybody know about a mishandled go around a few years back at Melbourne airport that had an airbus decending down the ILS from the MDA with climb power set?
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Old 21st May 2022, 07:03
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Do a search on the ATSB website!
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Old 21st May 2022, 12:04
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swh

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Originally Posted by chickenwings View Post
Anybody know about a mishandled go around a few years back at Melbourne airport that had an airbus decending down the ILS from the MDA with climb power set?
It is normal for an Airbus to be in the climb detent on the ILS with the autothrust engaged, crew would put the aircraft into the climb detent after takeoff, it will remain there for the rest of the flight including during an approach, and move it back to idle in the flare.
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Old 21st May 2022, 12:44
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You’re probably thinking of the A320 missed approach from minima and they set FLX MCT detent, not TOGA.

They didn’t pick the mistake by reading the FMA in a timely manner as the company had bumped it down the SOPSs.

they kept descending. Go to 40 feet by the time they picked it and went around.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24388/...576_Prelim.pdf

Edit - full report here. https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/793232/ao2007044.pdf

Last edited by compressor stall; 23rd May 2022 at 07:25. Reason: added full report
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Old 21st May 2022, 13:15
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Yep, I remember the Jetstar CEO and new head of safety being quizzed about this in the Senate enquiry.

how they wriggled out of it had more to do with political clout and a spineless regulator, than any satisfactory answers!
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Old 21st May 2022, 13:59
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Can anyone say TOGA tap
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Old 21st May 2022, 14:37
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Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this shit had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.
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Old 21st May 2022, 21:17
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Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this shit had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.
Interesting reading that report.
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Old 21st May 2022, 21:45
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Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this shit had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.
Leave the ‘89 grievances at the door buddy, no one cares anymore.
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Old 21st May 2022, 23:18
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Cool

Be careful of history, those who ignore it tend to repeat it
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Old 22nd May 2022, 00:09
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Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this shit had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.
The pilots involved had never worked for Ansett in their lives.

Pull your head in.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 01:21
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Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT.
Funnily enough, the A350 has a 'soft' go-around mode that's activated by selecting the thrust levers to TOGA then back to FLX/MCT. The GA SOFT mode limits the vertical speed to about 2,000 ft/min.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 01:56
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Leave the ‘89 grievances at the door buddy, no one cares anymore.
It appears to me that the effects of what happened in 89 are still affecting the aviation industry here.

Be careful of history, those who ignore it tend to repeat it
So yeah, I always have that ^ in mind.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:51
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
Funnily enough, the A350 has a 'soft' go-around mode that's activated by selecting the thrust levers to TOGA then back to FLX/MCT. The GA SOFT mode limits the vertical speed to about 2,000 ft/min.
As does the A380 following one of the ‘batch’ upgrades quite a few years ago.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:02
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So Airbus have failed to learn from Jetstar?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:32
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
As does the A380 following one of the ‘batch’ upgrades quite a few years ago.
And the A320 NEO. I think the A350 and A330 NEO are the only ones for which is it standard fit out through.

Derfred, I think you're fishing, but if you look at the new SOP with the SGA mode you still have to go to TOGA, confirm the FMA, then pull back to FLX MCT then (after gear and flap) confirm the FMA again. (I underlined the differences for you ). And in any case, the response the the SGA function was developed due to somatogravic illusion issues with the high dynamic manoeuvre, not to ignore the FMA. The procedure referenced above was a home baked company approved manoeuvre developed with well meaning intent, but without OEM approval and very very nearly ended in tears.

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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:52
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Mask Rotum: "They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap"

Bulldung! I was with AN for 10 yrs and never heard of an INTAM, the TOGA Tap I recall well.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 08:45
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So if this so called TOGA tap was so bad, why did AN never have a go-round issue over 13 years of operating the A320? I mean I find it hard to believe a procedure from a mob that successfully operated the type for over a decade would suddenly founder the opening years of a new company. Or have posters forgotten AN had Airbus. Or are we saying that some Boeing drivers (unrelated to AN) imported the procedure from 737s over to Airbus?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 20:50
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You can go a long time doing an incorrect, unapproved procedure, before it just has all those holes in the cheese line up and then you end up with a near catastrophic event.

Or am I supposed to say something along the lines of “because Ansett were so good”?
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Old 23rd May 2022, 02:54
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TOGA Tap was a published procedure for years especially when a low GA altitude is published, in the case above the TOGA TAP PROCEDURE wasn’t correctly applied and GA mode was never engaged so all that happened was the application of power, an associated pitch up leading the crew to assume a go around had commenced before the aircraft pitched down and accelerated towards the runway in an effort to recapture the Glideslope, Golden Rule. ‘Know your FMA’.
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