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Old 29th May 2022, 07:46
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Angel

There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has. Remember when the Qantas pilots said don,t join Jetstar on such poor conditions , I wonder where all the people are that took this advice , probably not in Aviation , but more than likely in JQ or VA.
the only floor in this is the pilot award for now , but even this will be challenged.
457 visas would open the floodgates, never will be more than temporary shortages in Australian Airlines.
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Old 29th May 2022, 08:04
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Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin
There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has. Remember when the Qantas pilots said don,t join Jetstar on such poor conditions , I wonder where all the people are that took this advice , probably not in Aviation , but more than likely in JQ or VA.
the only floor in this is the pilot award for now , but even this will be challenged.
457 visas would open the floodgates, never will be more than temporary shortages in Australian Airlines.
Yeah I think I have to keep reminding people of this:

You say ďrace to the bottomĒ, the proposed deal for the A321 will see (at the usual hours of roughly 68 per roster) Captains earn about $310,000 and F/Oís $195,000. With some allowances, bonus and picking up an extra day of work a roster in what an ďaverageĒ year pre pandemic wouldíve consisted of can see that pay increase by 25-30%.

In comparison the Pilotís Award floor for Narrowbody Captain and F/O are $171,000 and $110,000 once the ATPL, turbojet and IR allowances are added on.
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Old 29th May 2022, 08:34
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In comparison the Pilotís Award floor for Narrowbody Captain and F/O are $171,000 and $110,000 once the ATPL, turbojet and IR allowances are added on.
The Pilot's Award is a pointless comparison as you couldn't run an airline on the work rules. It's basically 171k to work business hours with weekends off.

There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has.
It will stop when the Pilot Labour market implodes and noone wants to do the job as the cost of training is to high and noone wants to take the risk. I would suggest that some Regionals and maybe Alliance will be there sooner than you think.
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Old 29th May 2022, 08:47
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody


It will stop when the Pilot Labour market implodes and noone wants to do the job as the cost of training is to high and noone wants to take the risk. I would suggest that some Regionals and maybe Alliance will be there sooner than you think.
The cost of training, today, including common ratings like FIR, IR, ME etc is 120-130k. Then you are earning probably 60k for the next 5-10 years. Sounds attractive right?

Some places like the US have seen what is coming in the medium term and are offering some serious improvements in pay. Get them while you can etc.

We will be the last place on earth to react to anything and by the time we do, we will be parking aircraft and paying the next generation of pilots, whoever is left, crazy overtime rates. Itís at that point in when we might do something, which usually involves sooking to Canberra. Cadets are the answer apparently. No they are not, in this country they will all just p!ss off abroad taking double dollars to fly big twins with folding wings.

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Old 6th Jun 2022, 15:32
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I don't ever recall QF getting bagged in the media, on travel forums and social media as much as they have been for the last few months. Surely, (eventually) some of the mud being flung must stick on Joyce and co. How long can they go on treating pax and staff with utter contempt whilst applauding there cost cutting strategies.
Furious passengers unleash on Qantas after flight attendants exposed the shocking secrets of Australia's national carrier: 'You need to do better'
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Old 6th Jun 2022, 22:48
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Originally Posted by cLeArIcE
I don't ever recall QF getting bagged in the media, on travel forums and social media as much as they have been for the last few months. Surely, (eventually) some of the mud being flung must stick on Joyce and co. How long can they go on treating pax and staff with utter contempt whilst applauding there cost cutting strategies.
Furious passengers unleash on Qantas after flight attendants exposed the shocking secrets of Australia's national carrier: 'You need to do better'
So much truth in that article,the mean spirit has been in existence for quite a few years now & the little grubs at the top believe they are answerable to nobody.
The lies continue & unless the decision of a court is in their favour,it is of course WRONG.
If anybody complains,whether it be passengers,workers or unions,they of course are wrong too.
It was once a great place to work but thats long gone.
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Old 7th Jun 2022, 11:56
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With some allowances, bonus and picking up an extra day of work a roster
riiiiiiight, so picking up an extra days flying boosts your bottom line remuneration, keeps you out of the race to the bottom? So if your income starts to lag a bit, just pick up an extra 2 days flying. When inflation hits 8-10% just pick up maybe 3 extra days.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 01:01
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Originally Posted by tossbag
riiiiiiight, so picking up an extra days flying boosts your bottom line remuneration, keeps you out of the race to the bottom? So if your income starts to lag a bit, just pick up an extra 2 days flying. When inflation hits 8-10% just pick up maybe 3 extra days.
If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit itís an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week. For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And thatís not including allowances or the bonus.

Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up thatís an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, itís a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster youíre still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.



Last edited by dr dre; 8th Jun 2022 at 01:26.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 01:40
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Keep telling yourself that.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 02:34
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Originally Posted by dr dre
If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit itís an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week. For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And thatís not including allowances or the bonus.

Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up thatís an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, itís a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster youíre still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.
So....uuhhh...how long does it take to get to such a shiny jet? And how much have you had to sacrifice yourself both financially (a shitload...) and personally (how many failed relationships?) to get that "considerable amount of money"? It's not as if you get your CPL, pass your ATPL theory and you're flying punters to Bali the following week, is it...There's years flogging out back of Kunners in a 182 that was due for replacement when your parents were born, then maybe a gig in a Conquest or KingAir out of Darwin or Cairns, all the while hoping for that elusive callup...

FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!

Face facts, flying commercially in Oz is no longer worth it - it hasn't been for at least the last decade, and unless you're in it for the satisfaction of helping people, a'la RFDS or CareFlight, you're going to be far better off in another career and flying for fun, in your own time. Don't believe me? Run a search on 'Prune for the phrase "Race to the bottom" and see how many times it crops up....
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 02:58
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Originally Posted by KRviator
So....uuhhh...how long does it take to get to such a shiny jet?.
On the current fleet the range of pilot backgrounds is variable, everything from late careers changes who came in to the role in their 50s down to cadets with only a few years in aviation in their early twenties. For sake of defining an "average" background I'd say just prior to Covid it was 30 years old, maybe several years of light aircraft GA flying followed by a few years of regional flying. A lot went straight into a regional via a cadetship or traineeship after basic training. Some went from about two years of basic GA instructing post CPL straight to mainline. Average national salary for someone at age 30 is slightly less than average overall salary, which peaks around age 50. People were getting FO gigs either straight away or no longer than a year or two wait depending on base, and the average age of a new hire is late 20s.

FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!\
Average wages for Australian accountants are roughly $80-100k according to these salary statistics. You have to get to management positions to get salaries above the mid $100ks, and the only ones earning Captain's equivalent would be positions like CFO or Head of Department.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 04:25
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And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!
She would not be working a 38-40 hour week for that though, try about 70 hours a week.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 08:43
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Originally Posted by KRviator
FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!
You have missed the point completely. Nobody wants to be an accountant. Even fewer want to be an accountant wearing PJs.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 03:48
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If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit it’s an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week.


So what?

For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And that’s not including allowances or the bonus.
Again........so what?


Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up that’s an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, it’s a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster you’re still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.
You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 03:49
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Nobody wants to be an accountant
Speak for yourself Tonto.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 04:32
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Originally Posted by tossbag
So what?



Again........so what?



You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?




Serious question, again. But other than the LHEA, which it has been categorically stated was never under consideration, what are these Ďbetter paid pilot positionsí?


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Old 9th Jun 2022, 07:07
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Originally Posted by tossbag
You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?


You wonít find a better paid domestic pilot position in the country, and very few global narrowbody non-contract positions would match pay. SH F/O rates after 4 years are similar to AA/DL 738 F/O rates after 6 years, although the US carriers have a few more yearly increments to nudge it up a bit more but not significantly so.

I just added in the extra hours pay as an example of what possible salary could be if you chose i to extra hours, but vice versa you can drop hours and have more time off if you so wish. Or just work the standard hours. Your choice.

So Iím failing to see these ďbetter paid pilot positionsĒ most of the people applying for mainline should be flocking to instead.

Last edited by dr dre; 21st Jun 2022 at 15:25.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 07:42
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Serious question, again. But other than the LHEA, which it has been categorically stated was never under consideration, what are these ‘better paid pilot positions’?
I'm talking about global comparisons, there are plenty of positions that pay more. And while Australians are trading down their remuneration a lot of those positions are negotiating better conditions.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 07:45
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From a supply and demand perspective there’s plenty out there who are willing to take these positions.
It wont take long before those pilots are absorbed around the world.

Perhaps you could suggest to the REX pilots that they work an extra 4 days on top of the 4 or so they're rostered to make up for the last 4 years of tripe. 8 day week sounds reasonable.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 07:54
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Originally Posted by tossbag
I'm talking about global comparisons, there are plenty of positions that pay more. And while Australians are trading down their remuneration a lot of those positions are negotiating better conditions.
Outside of the US, where they have the benefit of a restricted supply of pilots (1500hr rule and protectionist rules re: visas) which unfortunately we donít have, there arenít any I know of that are better for flying narrow bodies. If there are plenty perhaps people would be able to name them.
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