QF Juggernaut
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey
I agree with that! I would not be surprised if JQ don’t account for nearly 50% of the QF bottom line or more in the next 3 years. I hear those poor folk still frozen on 2018 pay rates with 787 skippers on 228k for 75 hrs a month flogging around the tropics with regularly in excess of 350 pob. No happy campers there!
KDP was the final insult for the senior guys.
What a socially and professionally devisive thing KPIs are after all. Looks good on paper but when you cant look your own troops in the eyes, is it really worth it?
When the wheels fall off, how long can you drive on the rims?
MCD.
Last edited by ManillaChillaDilla; 27th May 2022 at 11:26. Reason: s
So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 220s and 321s if NJS and SH don't operate them?
If there are all these expats supposedly willing to do it then why hasn't Alliance or Network got the memo that thier crewing problems are over?
Infact, where are all the pilots going to come from anyway when NJS and SH do get on with it? It seems that half of SH are trying to get to LH, and half of NJS are trying to get to Atlas as it is.
If there are all these expats supposedly willing to do it then why hasn't Alliance or Network got the memo that thier crewing problems are over?
Infact, where are all the pilots going to come from anyway when NJS and SH do get on with it? It seems that half of SH are trying to get to LH, and half of NJS are trying to get to Atlas as it is.
Originally Posted by Lapon
So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 321s if SH don't operate them?
They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.
Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.
It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.
Originally Posted by dr dre
Initially - we’ve seen on this thread VA and JQ pilots are on substantially less so DEC could be sourced from them for an salary more than their current rates but below what’s being proposed for mainline. Also can get expats from overseas wanting to come home, which they will for somewhere North of $250k per year. Current mainline pilots who’ve been waiting decades (yes decades) for a command and are now surplus to requirements with the phasing out of the 737. Even 457s if they can get away with it. F/Os can be sourced from Academy graduates.
They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.
Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.
It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.
They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.
Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.
It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.
Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.
VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.
Anything is always possible, but the at the heart of the matter is that the company need the pilots they have (and then some) for Winton to be a success.
Hurrying to accept a deal out of fear is how not to negotiate.
Originally Posted by Lapon
The fact Qantas lost in court over that will limit thier success at another attempt, as will will the slow phased approach with Winton.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.
Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.
VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.
The issue they have made it very clear what a “No” vote entails, and when they say something in the IR sphere they usually mean it despite how some they are bluffing. No one of those proposing a No vote have made any case for what happens post a No vote, only statements along the lines of “let some other mob fly the 321”. That’s how we’re going to treat the future careers of junior pilots? And all this for proposed 321 pay and conditions that are very similar to current ones, something not many suitable replacements in the industry would baulk at.
I dont work for Qantas so I dont know the specifics of what is being offered, but I dare say there is more than a base pay issue at stake.
If another entity was to be created from scratch I dont think it will be for terms 'slightly less' that SH already has or it wouldn't be worthwhile, which circles back to who would do what is arguably enroaching on A330 flying.
Alliance haven't got 457's, they have only said they need them, there are no grads, and I'm sure if there were an abundance of unemployed VA pilots or homesick expats they would have already gone to to Alliance or Network as to pay the bills / get home.
As sure as night follows day the next phase of Winton in the years ahead will 'require' further cuts to T&Cs to the point you need to ask where you are going to draw the line and say no.
If you don't have have one you might as well go and join the likes of Network now instead of waiting to be on par anyway.
If another entity was to be created from scratch I dont think it will be for terms 'slightly less' that SH already has or it wouldn't be worthwhile, which circles back to who would do what is arguably enroaching on A330 flying.
Alliance haven't got 457's, they have only said they need them, there are no grads, and I'm sure if there were an abundance of unemployed VA pilots or homesick expats they would have already gone to to Alliance or Network as to pay the bills / get home.
As sure as night follows day the next phase of Winton in the years ahead will 'require' further cuts to T&Cs to the point you need to ask where you are going to draw the line and say no.
If you don't have have one you might as well go and join the likes of Network now instead of waiting to be on par anyway.
From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
In reference to expats, it will be interesting when things pick up. Including, unbelievably at the moment, Hong Kong and China. A resurgence of demand for pilots in Asia and a new market in North America is as unprecedented as COVID itself. An offset will be new Australian taxation laws pertaining to expats that I think will make commuting a thing of the past. Many Australian pilots will go back abroad for financial reasons and a little adventure- versus flying jets regionally with an Uber driver like lifestyle.
There are also many pilots still not returning to the industry. At least not in a hurry to. Expats will gravitate back to that familiar patch. Some will remain in the reset lifestyle and enjoy it a while longer. Some of those returning are less happy with the crap lifestyle that has become “the norm” and accepted level of fatigue.
Add to this the inevitable health equation. The toll over the last couple of years has been present.
Add to this the inevitable health equation. The toll over the last couple of years has been present.
Originally Posted by TimmyTee
From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
Originally Posted by TimmyTee
From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
Agreed. Dr Dre, I sure hope you’re not a QF pilot mate. I respect everyone’s viewpoint, but the own goals must get tiring.
Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
Originally Posted by ExtraShot
Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.
Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....
…...but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote.
Originally Posted by C441
Not surprisingly that tends to happen when the threatened alternative is no job.
I genuinely dont know the answer, but pilots around here do have a reputation of sorts.
Originally Posted by ExtraShot
That doesn’t sound like you respect his viewpoint at all.
Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
No disrespect intended to Dr Dre or anyone else.
After decades of watching pilots ‘racing to the bottom’ through fear campaigns, I do sit and wonder why some think like they do.
…”no changes to salary”. Because of a declared pay freeze despite 5+% inflation? Oh, ok then. Variations to awards used to be a two-way street.
Weight and speed also used to be a thing. More revenue generated for the same low low pay wasn’t.
Weight and speed also used to be a thing. More revenue generated for the same low low pay wasn’t.
Originally Posted by dr dre
Well unless AIPA can provide some extra info in the document they should be providing next week I couldn’t see many major differences to the current EBA. A process of assigning reserve duties similar to assignment of flying duties is the main change. Otherwise there’s no changes to salary, operate under an FRMS similar to current duty time limits, parts of the RM incorporated into the FRMS, a process to ensure current SH crews in rank and base aren’t displaced as the new aircraft are bought in, some minor changes to the roster bidding process, longer freeze period but only if awarded a slot, if assigned a slot the shorter freeze period applies.
The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.
Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....
The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.
Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....
This is Qantas doing what Qantas does - squeezing everything they can out of every opportunity.
