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Old 25th May 2022, 12:41
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The re-employment clause was in all the agreements before COVID. It was never a secret.
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Old 25th May 2022, 16:01
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
I really think those days are gone, I noticed some pretty poor behaviour during the pandemic from a select few, however it’s every man for himself these days.

The worst I witnessed was widebody crews trying to do people like me, on a narrow body, out of my job. A group approached the union over that very matter. I have been here for xx years longer vs you have, I want my command back which I gave you when I left to go fly bigger toys. Nobody forced you to take an upgrade, I declined. One bloke told another captain here, to his face that he should be demoted back to FO from his recent command so he could get his old job back. We have no hope with snakes like this around the traps.
What you describe is literally how seniority is supposed to work, not the hatchet job VA did to the WB guys just because they were inconvenient. The training shuffle of downgrading everyone onto smaller equipment is supposed to be painful for the company, by design, to discourage mass redundancies. This is how seniority is supposed to protect your job.

But instead, VA got rid of everyone, regardless of seniority, who was an inconvenience for them... ie everyone who isn't a 737 driver. What then is the point of seniority if it doesn't protect your job, but still traps you to an airline? May as well have a merit based system at that point.

I don't work for VA either, I've made my bed elsewhere.
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Old 26th May 2022, 01:21
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Originally Posted by WillieTheWimp View Post
The re-employment clause was in all the agreements before COVID. It was never a secret.
You are correct and it wasnt. I was just saying it was not widely known by the NB crew.
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Old 26th May 2022, 12:57
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In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.
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Old 26th May 2022, 14:23
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Originally Posted by The_Equaliser View Post
In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.
What happens if you ignore the gag order? Sent to the naughty corner?
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Old 26th May 2022, 22:41
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Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
Neither Union has a snowflakes chance in hell of stopping Q doing exactly what Q wants to do, any thoughts to the contrary are delusional. It has been so for decades, sad but true. Just a bit of bravado from SL, he ain’t got nuttin to back it up.
Sadly true.

When the Fair Work Commisioner finds in favour of the sacked baggage handlers but refuses to reinstate them because it would impose a financial detriment to Qantas!

What bloody chance have you got?
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Old 27th May 2022, 00:15
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Originally Posted by The_Equaliser View Post
In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.
It doesn’t bode well for an organisation pilots send a few thousand dollars per year to represent them in situations like this.

Anyway on inspection the proposed conditions aren’t really that much of a change are they? Still will be some of the highest paid narrowbody pilots in the region, after the pandemic I thought the company would’ve made a pay cut a mandatory requirement in order to receive the new aircraft but they haven’t. Definitely more pay than any company the flying will be outsourced to if it’s a No vote. Pilots in base to get first priority in allocation of slots to avoid any unwanted transfers. FRMS looks to be similar to current FDTLs, some important parts of the rostering manual included in the variation. Very minor changes to bidding.

And then some reserves possibly allocated to those on AV days is the only real change but in fairness probably won’t be that much of an effect. The assigning of duties to crews only happens on an infrequent basis now anyway, only a few times per year. Most uncrewed reserves only happen at the last minute and the new process for allocating reserves has to be done days ahead, so last minute assignments would be a rarity.

There’s some who are angry with the process by which the variations were negotiated but you shouldn’t allow that to guide your decision making. Just consider the proposal on its own merit, with an awareness of what will happen if the vote goes either way.

If it’s a Yes then you get the A321 established in mainline under virtually the same conditions as now. Hard for them to outsource if the first aircraft are established in mainline, and any issues that arise when the operation starts can be addressed in future EBAs.

If it’s a No then the company has been pretty clear with their intentions. The Union also has not indicated that there would be any legal recourse to stop the aircraft going to another operator, of which there are plenty.

It’s a fairly easy choice tbh
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Old 27th May 2022, 00:37
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Originally Posted by DropYourSocks View Post
What you describe is literally how seniority is supposed to work, not the hatchet job VA did to the WB guys just because they were inconvenient. The training shuffle of downgrading everyone onto smaller equipment is supposed to be painful for the company, by design, to discourage mass redundancies. This is how seniority is supposed to protect your job.

But instead, VA got rid of everyone, regardless of seniority, who was an inconvenience for them... ie everyone who isn't a 737 driver. What then is the point of seniority if it doesn't protect your job, but still traps you to an airline? May as well have a merit based system at that point.

I don't work for VA either, I've made my bed elsewhere.
The issue was the reemployment policy had no details as to how the pilots were to be reemployed.
The AFAP then went and negotiated a deed of reemployed which screwed over Narrow body pilots without consultation to the NB pilots. What isn’t widely know is whilst in negotiations to further drive their own agenda protecting WB pilots the union agreed to a further pay cut of minimum credit guarantee. Costing NB pilots between $5000-$10,000.
The audacity of some WB pilots was breathtaking to say the only reason people had jobs is because they took jobs (And the $$, lifestyle, low hours etc) on the WB fleet.
Plenty of very senior pilots didn’t take a position in the WB as they could see it had its risks and stayed on the 737. It didn’t take a finance degree to figure Virgin was in serious trouble well before Covid. Posting a loss year in year out; the writing was on the wall.
It was always going to be a cluster but some acknowledgment, empathy and tact for both sides was needed. Instead FOs got railroaded.
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Old 27th May 2022, 01:21
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
It doesn’t bode well for an organisation pilots send a few thousand dollars per year to represent them in situations like this.

Anyway on inspection the proposed conditions aren’t really that much of a change are they? Still will be some of the highest paid narrowbody pilots in the region, after the pandemic I thought the company would’ve made a pay cut a mandatory requirement in order to receive the new aircraft but they haven’t. Definitely more pay than any company the flying will be outsourced to if it’s a No vote. Pilots in base to get first priority in allocation of slots to avoid any unwanted transfers. FRMS looks to be similar to current FDTLs, some important parts of the rostering manual included in the variation. Very minor changes to bidding.

And then some reserves possibly allocated to those on AV days is the only real change but in fairness probably won’t be that much of an effect. The assigning of duties to crews only happens on an infrequent basis now anyway, only a few times per year. Most uncrewed reserves only happen at the last minute and the new process for allocating reserves has to be done days ahead, so last minute assignments would be a rarity.

There’s some who are angry with the process by which the variations were negotiated but you shouldn’t allow that to guide your decision making. Just consider the proposal on its own merit, with an awareness of what will happen if the vote goes either way.

If it’s a Yes then you get the A321 established in mainline under virtually the same conditions as now. Hard for them to outsource if the first aircraft are established in mainline, and any issues that arise when the operation starts can be addressed in future EBAs.

If it’s a No then the company has been pretty clear with their intentions. The Union also has not indicated that there would be any legal recourse to stop the aircraft going to another operator, of which there are plenty.

It’s a fairly easy choice tbh
NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

It’s standard IR strategy to invoke a strict timeframe to get a new or amended EA approved as quickly as possible. This is to, amongst other things, reduce the likelihood of industrial action effecting the business.

Generally IR Managers use the standard “if you sign this, you will get XX weeks back pay, if not the back pay will no longer be on the table”. As QF invented a random policy of no wage increases for 2 years they are unable to do this. Therefore they have come up with a new strategy of rush rush sign this agreement quickly before a April/May/June board meeting to ensure your company operates our new aircraft.

It’s important to remember that there is no rush when negotiating a new or amended Agreement. Take the time to review all changes and ensure the impacts are clear and understood. If you are presented an agreement that has holes in it or is sub par to what you are already on and your company refuses to negotiate then vote accordingly.

IGNORE THE IR GRAD STUDENT BS!
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Old 27th May 2022, 01:30
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Originally Posted by anonfly View Post
The issue was the reemployment policy had no details as to how the pilots were to be reemployed.
The AFAP then went and negotiated a deed of reemployed which screwed over Narrow body pilots without consultation to the NB pilots. What isn’t widely know is whilst in negotiations to further drive their own agenda protecting WB pilots the union agreed to a further pay cut of minimum credit guarantee. Costing NB pilots between $5000-$10,000.
The audacity of some WB pilots was breathtaking to say the only reason people had jobs is because they took jobs (And the $$, lifestyle, low hours etc) on the WB fleet.
Plenty of very senior pilots didn’t take a position in the WB as they could see it had its risks and stayed on the 737. It didn’t take a finance degree to figure Virgin was in serious trouble well before Covid. Posting a loss year in year out; the writing was on the wall.
It was always going to be a cluster but some acknowledgment, empathy and tact for both sides was needed. Instead FOs got railroaded.
I'll admit, I don't know the details of what was or was not negotiated. My point is senior pilots should not have lost their jobs while junior pilots kept theirs. Fleet type is irrelevant. What is the point of all the negatives of a seniority list, if the only benefit (job security) is ignored? Of all the folks that lost out during Covid, I'd wager the junior VA folks got rather lucky all things considered. The risk of being on one fleet or another is the company's problem, not the pilots. My problem is with the deplorable way the company treated it's pilots.

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Old 27th May 2022, 01:40
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Originally Posted by DropYourSocks View Post
I'll admit, I don't know the details of what was or was not negotiated. My point is senior pilots should not have lost their jobs while junior pilots kept theirs. Fleet type is irrelevant. What is the point of all the negatives of a seniority list, if the only benefit (job security) is ignored? Of all the folks that lost out during Covid, I'd wager the junior VA folks got rather lucky all things considered. The risk of being on one fleet or another is the company's problem, not the pilots. My problem is with the deplorable way the company treated it's pilots.
Well said. There seem to a lot of angry and entitled junior fo’s at virgin who don’t seem to realise how lucky they are to still be in a job. They were probably the luckiest pilots in Australian aviation during covid. They’re whinging about their career progression while others (many who are senior to them) were kicked to the curb. Think about the poor folk at VANZ, Tiger and on the ATR (many of who were senior to many 737 fo’s) who got the flick, now having to wait their turn to return, most likely having to move base.

The seniority system needs to be run like a proper seniority system like at QF. If not, be done with it and just have the old system of mates looking after mates.
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Old 27th May 2022, 02:05
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

It’s standard IR strategy to invoke a strict timeframe to get a new or amended EA approved as quickly as possible. This is to, amongst other things, reduce the likelihood of industrial action effecting the business.

Generally IR Managers use the standard “if you sign this, you will get XX weeks back pay, if not the back pay will no longer be on the table”. As QF invented a random policy of no wage increases for 2 years they are unable to do this. Therefore they have come up with a new strategy of rush rush sign this agreement quickly before a April/May/June board meeting to ensure your company operates our new aircraft.

It’s important to remember that there is no rush when negotiating a new or amended Agreement. Take the time to review all changes and ensure the impacts are clear and understood. If you are presented an agreement that has holes in it or is sub par to what you are already on and your company refuses to negotiate then vote accordingly.

IGNORE THE IR GRAD STUDENT BS!
This!!

If QF want to give the entire new short haul fleet to another entity, they can go right ahead. NJS and SH are both being given the full thug treatment and neither are impressed. When the deal gets as bad as the mooted offer, other jobs start looking viable, even those outside of aviation. QF may indeed get to stick the boots into the pilots but the brand damage will eventually see the company suffering further irreversible damage. Meanwhile the top strata in management siphon off the difference as reward for their amazing stewardship.
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Old 27th May 2022, 02:21
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NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?
Right now the company would probably would have the numbers between Australian expats, disgruntled VA FO's, Older QF SOs/FOs, and Kiwis who would take jobs flying a contracted QF operation. However once they have drained that pond then QF are playing in a world market with well below market salaries. Whether they want to risk their brand on that is a decision they have to make.
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Old 27th May 2022, 02:59
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?
The aircraft is being introduced over the next decade so the ramp up can occur gradually, but there’s enough expats and others who’d jump at the opportunity initially for a command. In the long term I foresee them moving to the system the rest of the world uses. Cadets trained as a multicrew airline pilots from the get go, do 5-6 years in the right seat then straight to left seat. They’ve already started this with the Academy system, that’ll be producing a few hundreds pilots a year at its peak, more than enough to feed the SH operation. Now go tell a prospective pilot in their early twenties they can fly a jet after training, earn $150k straight up as an F/O then $220k as a Captain, you’re not going to find any who’ll refuse that offer.

It isn’t fearmongering but an honest appreciation of the reality of the future as I see it. Right now the offer is to fly the A321 under virtually the same conditions as the 737. Those pay rates are almost double the Pilot’s Award rates. It’s a no brainer to me.

Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post

If QF want to give the entire new short haul fleet to another entity, they can go right ahead. NJS and SH are both being given the full thug treatment and neither are impressed. When the deal gets as bad as the mooted offer, other jobs start looking viable, even those outside of aviation.
“As bad as the mooted offer” - I don’t know about NJS but SH’s offer is similar to current conditions, with a few changes like assigning reserve coverage. They’ll be the highest paid narrow bodied pilots in the region. Definitely provides the opportunity for all the current FO/SOs to get promoted, which is where the biggest jump in conditions come.
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Old 27th May 2022, 03:37
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
“As bad as the mooted offer” - I don’t know about NJS but SH’s offer is similar to current conditions, with a few changes like assigning reserve coverage. They’ll be the highest paid narrow bodied pilots in the region. Definitely provides the opportunity for all the current FO/SOs to get promoted, which is where the biggest jump in conditions come.
“Similar to current conditions”…that’s what has been said about the NJS offer. Have another look though, there will be a dozen or more minute changes that have great potential for detriment.

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.
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Old 27th May 2022, 04:09
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post
“Similar to current conditions”…that’s what has been said about the NJS offer. Have another look though, there will be a dozen or more minute changes that have great potential for detriment.

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.
I haven’t seen anything to ‘Have a another look through’ yet… can you elaborate on what is going to be so bad?

Dre’s run down seems correct to me from the little information we’ve been given so far. Other than in the US, are there any narrow body pilots the world over with a better offer to fly A321s?
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Old 27th May 2022, 04:09
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.
Do the math:

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Short Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (EBA8)

Page 51

4th year pay rate for Captains, given a standard divisor of around 68hrs brings that rate up to around $310k. And that’s without including allowances (if the A321 is doing a little more international flying that’ll shoot up significantly), bonus (extra 10% if management reward themselves which is regularly), or additional pay above 68hrs (which can be quite easy to pick up if you wish). Potentially with picking up a few extra trips and a little bit of international flying pay of $350-400k can be likely.

That is what they’re proposing for the A321. How is in any way, shape or form a “race to the bottom”?

We’ve just come out of the largest shock to the aviation industry in history and instead of losing your job, being made redundant, getting demoted or being forced to take a large pay cut, we’re being offered new aircraft under essentially the same pay and conditions, and a big pay rise for all the FOs and SOs who will get their long deserved promotions.

Instead some (I hope a minority) have an attitude of “tell the company where to shove it”. That might make you feel good but where does it leave the careers of a thousand junior pilots?

Last edited by dr dre; 21st Jun 2022 at 12:58.
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Old 27th May 2022, 04:55
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VA is on the race to the bottom Dr. Dre, 1 or 19 year Captains are on $200K at 57.5 hours and thats basically it. Most trips will be day trips with little overnights and next to no allowances. $310K would be out of reach at VA.
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Old 27th May 2022, 05:16
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The QF A321 proposal is probably the highest paid deal for that type globally, that I know about. A QF A321 LHS will be 100-150k ahead of a JQ A321 LHS.

VERY important that Team JQ fight tooth and nail for a solid deal very soon.
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Old 27th May 2022, 07:09
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
The QF A321 proposal is probably the highest paid deal for that type globally, that I know about. A QF A321 LHS will be 100-150k ahead of a JQ A321 LHS.

VERY important that Team JQ fight tooth and nail for a solid deal very soon.
I agree with that! I would not be surprised if JQ don’t account for nearly 50% of the QF bottom line or more in the next 3 years. I hear those poor folk still frozen on 2018 pay rates with 787 skippers on 228k for 75 hrs a month flogging around the tropics with regularly in excess of 350 pob. No happy campers there!
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