Psychometric testing
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 922
Likes: 2
From: australia
Sadly experience of f**k all value, the psycho dogma's got it all covered.
Probably the reason why major airlines (QF also??) are looking to amend their manuals, in the near future cadets straight out of school into the LHS of a RPT jet, the psycho says they'll be fine so why not??
Experience is so old school and passe!
Cheers
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 532
From: Somewhere
Probably the reason why major airlines (QF also??) are looking to amend their manuals, in the near future cadets straight out of school into the LHS of a RPT jet, the psycho says they'll be fine so why not??
Experience is so old school and passe!
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: Australia the Awesome
Now run the same argument but replace Captain with the word CEO/CFO/ General Manager and watch the pushback that starts up. The same people who say someone can be a airline captain with no experience will never say that a top uni graduate could be in senior management. Alan Joyce was only recently justifying pay rises for management in the midst of another billion dollar loss to maintain experience. But don't worry a guy who could kill 500 people and destroy the entire company doesn't need any.
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 569
Likes: 383
From: Australia
This is so true, the same people that push everyday to save “cost” ie: wages, also say at Executive level “if you don’t pay the market rate, you won’t attract the talent”. Look at the disparity between Executive salaries vs worker’s salary in the last 30 years.
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
I don't know what talent it is that they are looking at but IMHO, over the last 30+ years, the quality of management at senior level has declined significantly and the remuneration has risen exponentially.
This is now a 'club'. Don't bother working your way up and knowing something about the business anymore (and yes, pilots, engineers and ground ops people can make good CEOs), because that job is reserved for someone who fits a whole different set of parameters and once they're in, regardless of performance, they either get a golden parachute or stay as long as they like, followed by which they then spend the rest of their comfortable lives being 'invited' to serve on the Board of various companies. I seem to remember someone who drove one of our airlines into the ground, who then got an AO and several Board seats as 'reward'. Yet another, who came into a now defunct airline right at the end when it was already sinking, found it very hard to get a job afterward.
Now, incompetence and even billions in accumulated losses are no barrier to future reward.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 42
From: Waharoa, New Zealand
Would the Irishman refused the job if he was paid 50%, 25% or 10% of his current salary for the chance to live in the "lucky country"?
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: World
Somehow, the HR is taking a role that it shouldn´t. Some of the tests you have few time to understand the explanation. Not mentioning the fact you are nervous and the anxiety takes place. The worse of all is the Compass test. It might be good for the youngsters, but not for the others. Just my 2 cents.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
Somehow, the HR is taking a role that it shouldn´t. Some of the tests you have few time to understand the explanation. Not mentioning the fact you are nervous and the anxiety takes place. The worse of all is the Compass test. It might be good for the youngsters, but not for the others. Just my 2 cents.
Back in the day ( and acknowledging that I now sound 100 years old), you had a chat with the Chief Pilot or other senior pilot person as part of the selection process. If they reckoned that they could sit next to you for 8 hours, then that was good enough.
Big airlines had Sim rides, which were another good indicator.
And then, if any c0x slipped through the net, the trainers would offer a helpful readjustment.
Nowadays, the interview process is less about being a pilot, and more about been an HR drone.
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1,159
Likes: 899
From: Oz
It’s all data and spreadsheets these days, the old school hiring way does exist if you know the right people. Often startup carriers will be a hire large cohort of connected people, who have all worked with each other before, once they get scale they start hiring more HR people, in comes all the bull$hit.
Joined: Jun 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,701
Likes: 793
From: 3rd rock from the sun
The whole idea of psychometric testing is, in my view, complete and utter BS invented by some middle manager in the personnel department (laughingly called HR now) trying to justify their existence.
Back in the day ( and acknowledging that I now sound 100 years old), you had a chat with the Chief Pilot or other senior pilot person as part of the selection process. If they reckoned that they could sit next to you for 8 hours, then that was good enough.
Big airlines had Sim rides, which were another good indicator.
And then, if any c0x slipped through the net, the trainers would offer a helpful readjustment.
Nowadays, the interview process is less about being a pilot, and more about been an HR drone.
Back in the day ( and acknowledging that I now sound 100 years old), you had a chat with the Chief Pilot or other senior pilot person as part of the selection process. If they reckoned that they could sit next to you for 8 hours, then that was good enough.
Big airlines had Sim rides, which were another good indicator.
And then, if any c0x slipped through the net, the trainers would offer a helpful readjustment.
Nowadays, the interview process is less about being a pilot, and more about been an HR drone.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 61
Likes: 61
From: HKG
The whole idea of psychometric testing is, in my view, complete and utter BS invented by some middle manager in the personnel department (laughingly called HR now) trying to justify their existence.
Back in the day ( and acknowledging that I now sound 100 years old), you had a chat with the Chief Pilot or other senior pilot person as part of the selection process. If they reckoned that they could sit next to you for 8 hours, then that was good enough.
Big airlines had Sim rides, which were another good indicator.
And then, if any c0x slipped through the net, the trainers would offer a helpful readjustment.
Nowadays, the interview process is less about being a pilot, and more about been an HR drone.
Back in the day ( and acknowledging that I now sound 100 years old), you had a chat with the Chief Pilot or other senior pilot person as part of the selection process. If they reckoned that they could sit next to you for 8 hours, then that was good enough.
Big airlines had Sim rides, which were another good indicator.
And then, if any c0x slipped through the net, the trainers would offer a helpful readjustment.
Nowadays, the interview process is less about being a pilot, and more about been an HR drone.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
total hours, or,
TP hours, or
Jet hours, or
PIC hours, or
experience on similar type of aircraft / region, or
Licence type, or
other aviation quals (instructor etc), or,
other non aviation quals
It’s very easy to order a list of CVs. Airlines have been doing it for years.
You need X people, you have Y applicants. Take Z candidates forward.
For 20 slots, you might only interview 35. Airlines should not waste their time, or the candidates, interviewing way more people than they need.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 119
From: SE Qld, Australia
Newhairdo:
I couldn't agree more - when I joined Ansett in 1969, before you even got to the final interviews you spent a day with Chandler & MacLeod doing all sorts of tests. At the commencement of the intake course one gent was singled out and lauded as having "the best results ever". Subsequently his problem turned out to be that he couldn't fly an aeroplane to save himself and was quietly let go following a disastrous (attempted) F.27 endorsement.
The whole idea of psychometric testing is, in my view, complete and utter BS
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 167
Likes: 25
From: 10'S 100'E
So, pay an HR “person” to sort through applications that candidates could have streamlined themselves with higher experience requirements?
Sounds like jobs for the boys/girls/furries. 🙄
To me the problem is you’ve got too many applicants for the positions available. The minimum requirements are a license with no experience.
So they’re then paying “HR/talent acquisition” people to create and administer a test to thin out the applicants. They are doing that with a series of interview questions such as “tell me a time when…
These questions are being answered by everyone with a license, those that have done the job for some time and those that have just got a license but often no life experience. It surprises me still, how often those with experience are bypassed for someone that can tell a good story but can’t fly a plane.
Sounds like jobs for the boys/girls/furries. 🙄
To me the problem is you’ve got too many applicants for the positions available. The minimum requirements are a license with no experience.
So they’re then paying “HR/talent acquisition” people to create and administer a test to thin out the applicants. They are doing that with a series of interview questions such as “tell me a time when…
These questions are being answered by everyone with a license, those that have done the job for some time and those that have just got a license but often no life experience. It surprises me still, how often those with experience are bypassed for someone that can tell a good story but can’t fly a plane.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 167
Likes: 25
From: 10'S 100'E
The 20000hr person is probably sick of flying with the 500th 200hr person 🤷♂️
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 61
Likes: 61
From: HKG
Well that 20000 hour person sounds like a pleasure to work with.. Forget psych testing, give him a job immediately!
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 167
Likes: 25
From: 10'S 100'E
I didn’t say it needed to be the only thing, but raising the experience bar could streamline HRs workload, they might be able to keep applicants informed throughout the process?
As for my comment, you’ll understand one day. 😉
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: World
Well, I understand the tests have their sense when the airlines are serching for pilots, but the problem is some of them(test) are difficult to do, and hard to understand, specially talking about guys over 45 years old. Feels like they want to hire a super power pilot.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
Airline HR people have managed to create a very lucrative cottage industry for themselves with this BS.
It used to be very rare to come across psychometric testing. The old interview with the Chief Pilot, maybe with someone from ‘personnel’ taking notes worked brilliantly for years.
But now we have fallen for the HR mantra, and significantly over complicated the whole recruitment process, whilst also adding in cost.
And it hasn’t achieved anything at all.
Most people who are successful at interview (and maybe a Sim Ride) turn out to be perfectly trainable pilots, are normal people, nice to fly with and get on with the job, and each other. Occasionally, d1kheads get through. It was always the case. BS psychometric tests don’t change this. They have no safety benefit and they do not reduce training risk.
Its just empire building by the old personnel dept.
It used to be very rare to come across psychometric testing. The old interview with the Chief Pilot, maybe with someone from ‘personnel’ taking notes worked brilliantly for years.
But now we have fallen for the HR mantra, and significantly over complicated the whole recruitment process, whilst also adding in cost.
And it hasn’t achieved anything at all.
Most people who are successful at interview (and maybe a Sim Ride) turn out to be perfectly trainable pilots, are normal people, nice to fly with and get on with the job, and each other. Occasionally, d1kheads get through. It was always the case. BS psychometric tests don’t change this. They have no safety benefit and they do not reduce training risk.
Its just empire building by the old personnel dept.