Psychometric testing
No, I don't carry alternate fuel for every destination regardless of weather however there are exceptions. That's where prudent planning comes in. Anyway, enough of the thread drift.
Originally Posted by Uplinker
These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination
This is why psychometric testing has a reading comprehension component.
My inclusion of the RTO is to demonstrate, using your own example for effect, that your foundation isn't correct. V1 isn't called "hand eye coordination speed", its called decision speed. You have to recognize, analyze and decide in an extremely time compressed environment. There is no 'sitting on your hands', dodar or any other such nonsense.. It has nothing to do with how well you can pat your head whilst rubbing your stomach. The aircraft has presented you with a problem. You have 3 seconds to make the right decision, the consequences of which could be significant. Would you like me to list examples of what happens when the wrong decision is made? Where do you think those pilots went wrong? Hand eye coordination not good enough I suppose?
Originally Posted by Uplinker
As for your mate not being able to do the three times table........... huh ?
You claim that being a pilot involves no requirement to make decisions or do basic arithmetic in an environment of time pressure. You have claimed that anything that is in that environment of time pressure is a hand eye coordination task, not a cognitive task. (Side note, you also amusingly claim that the human brain slows down because it gets 'full', but I see you've decided to abandon ship on that vapid argument).
I can, and have shown that this is nonsense.
Originally Posted by Uplinker
And are you telling us that you don't do DODAR or anything in emergencies; you just make a snap decision?
Originally Posted by Uplinker
I think Stationair8 has given us the real reason for psychometric testing.
I'd argue you have.
The point was, sometimes you have to do math under time pressure, that's all. No matter how well you do your 6P's.
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I know a bloke involved in creating the curriculum for a medical degree. He said very little of medical degree requires more than average year `12 knowledge but what a high score does predict is the ability to absorb a huge amount of information in a limited time and the ability to integrate it into a coherent whole. It does not predict how good a Doctor the candidate will be. Hence the increase in emphasis on personality profiling in Med. schools.
Same in Aviation. Psychometric testing doesnt predict if you will be a good Pilot. It does however predict the likelihood of the candidate getting through ground and line training efficiently.and successfully in the limited time available.
In the diversion scenario described by US ( I remember that day ) you find out if the newbie next to you absorbed the appropriate information during line training.
Reciting rules and Regis wont cut it. Otherwise its single Pilot IFR. I’ll take an ordinary GA Pilot with single pilot IFR in a Turbine any time.
But those days are gone. Welcome to the world of 200 hours F/O’s. Glad I’m retired.
Same in Aviation. Psychometric testing doesnt predict if you will be a good Pilot. It does however predict the likelihood of the candidate getting through ground and line training efficiently.and successfully in the limited time available.
In the diversion scenario described by US ( I remember that day ) you find out if the newbie next to you absorbed the appropriate information during line training.
Reciting rules and Regis wont cut it. Otherwise its single Pilot IFR. I’ll take an ordinary GA Pilot with single pilot IFR in a Turbine any time.
But those days are gone. Welcome to the world of 200 hours F/O’s. Glad I’m retired.
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runway damage as happened in Sydney a few years ago,
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Yeah that was a good one.
More recently a Heavy departing on 16R in SYD blew an Engine and in the RTO burst a tyre. The tyreless hub scoured the surface of 25 and debris from the engine and tyre closed 16R. Bingo. Down to one runway. Never happens the Fuel gurus say. Oh yes it does. You find out at lot about your buddy on days like that.
Mede for a long day at the office if you were trying to do a double MEL-SYD shuttle.
More recently a Heavy departing on 16R in SYD blew an Engine and in the RTO burst a tyre. The tyreless hub scoured the surface of 25 and debris from the engine and tyre closed 16R. Bingo. Down to one runway. Never happens the Fuel gurus say. Oh yes it does. You find out at lot about your buddy on days like that.
Mede for a long day at the office if you were trying to do a double MEL-SYD shuttle.
I cannot see their worth for selecting pilots, since the tests bear no relation to the flying task.
They test for intelligence, which is fair enough, airlines or aircraft operators do not want to employ dim people. A dim person could have good hand-eye coordination, but a pilot needs also to have intelligence to deal with all the peripheral tasks outside actually flying a plane: fuelling and loading calculations, delay management, team work, knowledge of limitations, procedures, rules and regulations etc.
But when they put very tight time limits on the tests, I am pretty sure that they are being used as a proxy for age. As we get older, our thought processes slow down because, like a computer whose hard disk is nearly full, our thought processing involves going through more memory content than when one is younger.
Age discrimination is illegal in most countries, so I think airlines develop ways of selecting the younger candidates, and I think they do this through tightly timed tests. At one airline, we had to do 25 or so maths questions in 12 minutes, and a similar tight restriction on a verbal comprehension test. One important thing pilots are taught is that in an emergency don't do anything quickly; sit on your hands, assess all the information carefully. DODAR etc.
The only things pilots need to do quickly is get the rudder in to keep straight on the runway during an engine failure; operate the flight controls when landing in a turbulent crosswind, or do an RTO. These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination, not answering maths or verbal questions, or whether you like poetry or guns.
So to have to pass time-limited computer based puzzles and tests cannot be anything to do with pilot ability. They are arguably fair enough for newbies applying for their first jobs, but any pilot with decent experience has proved their psychometric ability already.
They test for intelligence, which is fair enough, airlines or aircraft operators do not want to employ dim people. A dim person could have good hand-eye coordination, but a pilot needs also to have intelligence to deal with all the peripheral tasks outside actually flying a plane: fuelling and loading calculations, delay management, team work, knowledge of limitations, procedures, rules and regulations etc.
But when they put very tight time limits on the tests, I am pretty sure that they are being used as a proxy for age. As we get older, our thought processes slow down because, like a computer whose hard disk is nearly full, our thought processing involves going through more memory content than when one is younger.
Age discrimination is illegal in most countries, so I think airlines develop ways of selecting the younger candidates, and I think they do this through tightly timed tests. At one airline, we had to do 25 or so maths questions in 12 minutes, and a similar tight restriction on a verbal comprehension test. One important thing pilots are taught is that in an emergency don't do anything quickly; sit on your hands, assess all the information carefully. DODAR etc.
The only things pilots need to do quickly is get the rudder in to keep straight on the runway during an engine failure; operate the flight controls when landing in a turbulent crosswind, or do an RTO. These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination, not answering maths or verbal questions, or whether you like poetry or guns.
So to have to pass time-limited computer based puzzles and tests cannot be anything to do with pilot ability. They are arguably fair enough for newbies applying for their first jobs, but any pilot with decent experience has proved their psychometric ability already.
If you can’t pass them, maybe you need to accept that you may be one of the type they’re not looking for.
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Funniest shit I’ve read in a while. Thankfully it appears that psychometric testing does work, because it filters out the crowd of “I can fly a 389ft circuit using only my superior skills and I don’t need maths” pilots who can’t accept that through human factors research, we are discovering that there’s a lot more to being a pilot than plonking it down without waking row 4.
If you can’t pass them, maybe you need to accept that you may be one of the type they’re not looking for.
If you can’t pass them, maybe you need to accept that you may be one of the type they’re not looking for.
"Witch" Vs "Which", ok basic understanding of the english language which will be useful.
Answering a question with your "best" multiple choice then having to select your next "best" (or least worst) answer as well - great idea in a profession where Jung, Freud and all the other proponents would interpret the answers differently from each other - yeah, that really makes sense.
Finally because an individual has made up "their" progression it is the only possible progression that can be seen so anyone who doesn't see it are wrong?
The HR apparatus have enforced a position that their psychobabble means everything, experience nothing.
I think that's a great imbalance - but at least I get to see sequentially the person being bent over the desk and rodgererd!
Seems a strange one to me - but who's to argue with the psychobabblers??
Cheers.
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Being of an older generation it's never been explained to me the benefits for the make up of the pilot group?
Uniformity? Conformity? Ease of manipulation into prevailing dogma?
Sort of defeats the purpose of CRM if the aim is to have everyone wired the same.
Cheers.
2+2 = 4, ok basic maths so profiles, fuel calculations and so on - even only as a basic cross check - should be ok.
"Witch" Vs "Which", ok basic understanding of the english language which will be useful.
Answering a question with your "best" multiple choice then having to select your next "best" (or least worst) answer as well - great idea in a profession where Jung, Freud and all the other proponents would interpret the answers differently from each other - yeah, that really makes sense.
Finally because an individual has made up "their" progression it is the only possible progression that can be seen so anyone who doesn't see it are wrong?
The HR apparatus have enforced a position that their psychobabble means everything, experience nothing.
I think that's a great imbalance - but at least I get to see sequentially the person being bent over the desk and rodgererd!
Seems a strange one to me - but who's to argue with the psychobabblers??
Cheers.
"Witch" Vs "Which", ok basic understanding of the english language which will be useful.
Answering a question with your "best" multiple choice then having to select your next "best" (or least worst) answer as well - great idea in a profession where Jung, Freud and all the other proponents would interpret the answers differently from each other - yeah, that really makes sense.
Finally because an individual has made up "their" progression it is the only possible progression that can be seen so anyone who doesn't see it are wrong?
The HR apparatus have enforced a position that their psychobabble means everything, experience nothing.
I think that's a great imbalance - but at least I get to see sequentially the person being bent over the desk and rodgererd!
Seems a strange one to me - but who's to argue with the psychobabblers??
Cheers.
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When I did mine for the airline which required it, I then went through it with a psychologist afterwards and had it explained to me what my results revealed. It was rather interesting and I’d actually say spot on. Certainly taught me a bit about myself and areas which I could work on when it came time to upgrade.
I believe that's crap and a very unhealthy and unbalanced way for said organisations to approach things but like group thinking and wokeness the proponents are in the ascendancy for now.
If I were starting out it's an area I would have to spend significant money in gaming as the penalty for NOT succeeding is your career.
Nunc est bibendum
Galdian. Psychometric assessments have their place as one small part of the recruitment process. They’re not the be all and end all and how the results are used is just as important as what they’re looking for.
I’ve heard of examples of of the benchmark being lowered and one Aussie airlines accepting candidates that their own psychometric testing disqualified in the years prior when they’ve been faced with the lack of suitable applicants. (Around the 2007-2009 time frame). Obviously this is a poor use of them. Why bother if you’re going to ignore the results?
Whether they’re used well is a very subjective assessment. Just as looking at a logbook full of ‘experience’ doesn’t tell a full story, and asking questions about the time you demonstrated great teamwork doesn’t tell the full story, psychometric testing also won’t tell the full story.
So I’m not defending the way they’re used by many airlines, I’m simply saying that they’re a tool that can be used well.
I’ve heard of examples of of the benchmark being lowered and one Aussie airlines accepting candidates that their own psychometric testing disqualified in the years prior when they’ve been faced with the lack of suitable applicants. (Around the 2007-2009 time frame). Obviously this is a poor use of them. Why bother if you’re going to ignore the results?
Whether they’re used well is a very subjective assessment. Just as looking at a logbook full of ‘experience’ doesn’t tell a full story, and asking questions about the time you demonstrated great teamwork doesn’t tell the full story, psychometric testing also won’t tell the full story.
So I’m not defending the way they’re used by many airlines, I’m simply saying that they’re a tool that can be used well.
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Keg
All fair enough, your last sentence sums it up - are certain organisations using the tool well?
Be different opinions, I believe in some organisations it is a totally unbalanced and unhealthy domination of psychometric testing over other aspects of an application.
Cheers
All fair enough, your last sentence sums it up - are certain organisations using the tool well?
Be different opinions, I believe in some organisations it is a totally unbalanced and unhealthy domination of psychometric testing over other aspects of an application.
Cheers
Originally Posted by Keg
Do you think that’s all these psychometric skills measure for? Maths and reasoning?
No. But the joke didn't flow as well if I sat there and listed every metric
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 14th Jan 2022 at 02:01.
I got a genuine laugh out of this.
The ageing process of the brain has nothing to do with the fact you have 'more memory content'.
Psychometric testing looks at one aspect of a pilots competencies. It doesn't claim that it covers them all, so your example where people 'aced the test' but couldn't fly is a meaningless straw man.
The only things? Really? So when we get an ECAM/equivalent at V1 - 20kts you've got all the time in the world to assess, analyze and make a critical decision do you? Personally, if I'm sitting in the hold over my recently closed destination on min fuel looking for alternates, maybe with weather, I'm happier sitting next to someone who can quickly do the math, rather than old mate who wants to sit on his hands because a bit of time pressure buckles his/her/its ability to do the 3 times tables.
The ageing process of the brain has nothing to do with the fact you have 'more memory content'.
Psychometric testing looks at one aspect of a pilots competencies. It doesn't claim that it covers them all, so your example where people 'aced the test' but couldn't fly is a meaningless straw man.
The only things? Really? So when we get an ECAM/equivalent at V1 - 20kts you've got all the time in the world to assess, analyze and make a critical decision do you? Personally, if I'm sitting in the hold over my recently closed destination on min fuel looking for alternates, maybe with weather, I'm happier sitting next to someone who can quickly do the math, rather than old mate who wants to sit on his hands because a bit of time pressure buckles his/her/its ability to do the 3 times tables.
Perhaps having the intuition to not end up in such a situation in the first place is a better option.
