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Project Winton- Airbus

Old 21st Dec 2021, 15:36
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.

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Old 21st Dec 2021, 16:02
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eclan View Post
How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.
Over 20 years mate. And you know what, Qantas pilots still fly every fleet that has been introduced into mainline since then (737-800, A330, A380, 787, A350 [pending it’s likely arrival])

I don’t see the likelihood of the A321’s at least, with a “Link” on the side of them. The A220’s probably will, but they’re a 717 replacement, so not exactly a replacement for any mainline aircraft.

Of course management is going to try and get some concessions out of you, they wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t try. But given it’s a very similar aircraft type, with perhaps the exception of some additional longer range flying (hey, wouldn’t you believe it, maybe that’s why they’re wanting to discuss it!! ), I doubt they’re going to want many if any concessions. Who knows, maybe they might even offer you more!
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 00:16
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.
At the moment, no. In the future, I believe so.

2030s and beyond it’s pretty clear there will be a lack of bodies across the board and to get those, cash and bonuses galore will need to be offered. I don’t think much will change here, the regionals and Jetstar might suffer a bit.

I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 01:05
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, if cash and bennies are back to what they were in 2005, adjusted for inflation. Leopards don’t change spots too often, and the ME3 have amptly proven that you don’t go there for a career. I think the big money days for western captains in China are largely over too, although there might be a couple more years to be had.

Covid has taught that the expat life can come to an abrupt halt for the most arbitrary, flimsy reasons.

All of which might be a good thingilots may eventually force higher wages rather than join the diaspora.

Last edited by Australopithecus; 22nd Dec 2021 at 01:17.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 01:28
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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As humans we have short memories. When China opens up and offering $$$$ pilots will trip over themself getting there. This pandemic has a few yrs to run yet.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 03:45
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post

I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.
It also depends on what stage of life your in. A few year's ago I'd agree with your sentiments about not wanting to stay at a LCC.I dont Work for QF, I'd prefer to work there but I don't know now. Ive also lived overseas, it's not that great. Aus is my home, I like my house in a rural area surrounded with trees and greenery. My Mrs likes it. I want my kid's to have this to. But, flying narrow bodies domestically in Aus is boring as batsh*t 99% of the time. Since I started this career, I've always wanted to fly wide bodies to all corners of the globe but, once I turned 30+ i realised that, 1: I'll probably never be Happy with what I have career wise. 2: That flying wide bodies overseas will also quickly becomes boring as batsh*t too. So I try to be content with what I have. I remind myself that flying is Just a job, it's not my life nor does it define my status or who i am. Giving up a life here for some shit hole in the middle east / Asia for a big shiny Jet would be (for me) incredibly foolish.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 07:31
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking from experience, becoming an expat is an ugly thing to do to yourself. Even emigrating to arguably the best country in the world is a choice that exacts a toll. A house in your native country is about as good as life gets, but many people only realise that after it is too late.

I have met plenty of pilots who hailed from real shit holes who still were wistfully nostalgic for the old country. Imagine how home sick you'd be leaving a joint like this to live in an actual shit hole.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 13:42
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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It all depends where you go. I’ve got many friends in Singapore and USA who seem very happy. They do plan on returning during retirement pending what the accountant says. It’s not all bad however it’s not all good either. Some of these people have become very financially comfortable, and can retire back home on much more vs what they would have had should they never have left. I don’t know many in the ME who are happy or financially that great sadly.

With a lack of overall bodies in the long run, it might be possible for the GA lad or girl of today, to do a stint abroad with a big twin, and be able to return home and take a narrow body job off the bat. Unless you ‘know people’, returning home in recent times and picking something in the left seat, let alone the right seat, was very rare. Start ups was the real only way of getting a job back here, and you need to know people. Tiger originally crewed expats from Hong Kong and it appears Bonza will do the same looking at where it’s Management are from. Once you go, you don’t come back was generally the rule.
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Old 23rd Dec 2021, 11:14
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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I imagine that the USA is about the only possibility for GA or even junior LCC crew to improve their incomes. The E3 visa program is a gift to Aussies, and it seems that the US will need thousands of pilots for the foreseeable future, with potential for a permanent residency and a legacy carrier job. Others may have the right to work in Europe or the UK, but I think the pay & conditions there are pretty poor.

I don’t know how many LCC F/Os here would emigrate to join the bottom of an E jet list despite the rather more interesting follow on opportunities. As the saying goes: “It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future”.
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Old 11th Mar 2022, 08:19
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
The person who started this thread probably has some good insights.
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Old 11th Mar 2022, 08:56
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
I wouldn’t want to speak for the new AIPA president - but it could very well be that the comment was taken out of context, and ‘we would like to represent them too’ might actually mean that AIPA want to start covering members who work for NJS, such as at JQ and QLink. I’m not sure about others here, but the author of that Australian article tends to get key things wrong about the issues she writes about, especially when it comes to Pilot industrial agreement or their organisations.

For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.

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Old 11th Mar 2022, 09:19
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Baldrick, I have a cunning plan.
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Old 11th Mar 2022, 12:21
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink View Post

For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.
I have to agree

Although an integration into one list like the Qantas and Australian pilots in 1994 would be the ideal that time seems to be a one off. The trend ever since has definitely been to to expand to as many entities as possible.
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 01:23
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 04:37
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
God damn you!! I just spat coffee all over my laptop LMFAO that is some funny 5hit
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 04:58
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Project winton hey! Will it be shelved now for a while as the COVID recession is on its way.
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 08:50
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
NJS crews would get the benefit of being integrated into the mainline seniority list and the increased career opportunities if it went down like the Q and A pilots in 1994. They'd be a part of mainline

Originally Posted by SHVC View Post
Project winton hey! Will it be shelved now for a while as the COVID recession is on its way.
I doubt it. It's a 12 year project, there's no Covid related recession on the way (travel post Covid is booming). The conflict situation may have a temporary effect but it seems to be nearing a stalemate which will mean the conflict's length is measured in weeks not months or years. The oil price has spiked but a lot of that is due to the post pandemic boom not the war. Oil price is still below 2010-2014 levels.

I'd say travel to Eastern Europe may be down over the next few months but the rest of the world will be doing fine.
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 10:42
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas would never allow it. The whole point is to keep the group split. That way if anyone gets any cheeky ideas come EBA time all the company has to do is slip the "XYZ are happy to do it for this, so if you're not going to negotiate we'll just give it to them"
integration robs them of that card. Think of it as QFs version of mutually assured destruction 🤔
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Old 12th Mar 2022, 23:21
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
It is THIS^^^^^

I don’t believe that there is a “snowballs chance in hell” of seeing any joining of seniority lists of QF Group anytime soon.

Maybe, and it’s a slim Maybe, after the “Project Sunrise” and “Project Winton” aircraft and pay scales are bedded in, at a pay rate closer to Jetstar than QF, and the post Covid “Project Recovery” targets have been met, it may be beneficial to bring everyone onto the same list.

But why do that?

Having all these separate entities is the greatest industrial wedge they have had ever.

Without any “Scope” clauses, they just send the flying to the cheapest and most desperate entity and watch the desperation hit those that missed out.

Sure, it costs them a bit in training as pilots move around the group airlines, but that is a small (tax deductible) price to pay for longer term lower wages.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 01:50
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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10 Minutes to Go

Voting for the A220 NJS & A321XLR for Mainline closes in 10 minutes. May the pineapples end here.

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