Project Winton- Airbus
I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.
How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.
I don’t see the likelihood of the A321’s at least, with a “Link” on the side of them. The A220’s probably will, but they’re a 717 replacement, so not exactly a replacement for any mainline aircraft.
Of course management is going to try and get some concessions out of you, they wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t try. But given it’s a very similar aircraft type, with perhaps the exception of some additional longer range flying (hey, wouldn’t you believe it, maybe that’s why they’re wanting to discuss it!!
), I doubt they’re going to want many if any concessions. Who knows, maybe they might even offer you more!2030s and beyond it’s pretty clear there will be a lack of bodies across the board and to get those, cash and bonuses galore will need to be offered. I don’t think much will change here, the regionals and Jetstar might suffer a bit.
I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.
Yeah, if cash and bennies are back to what they were in 2005, adjusted for inflation. Leopards don’t change spots too often, and the ME3 have amptly proven that you don’t go there for a career. I think the big money days for western captains in China are largely over too, although there might be a couple more years to be had.
Covid has taught that the expat life can come to an abrupt halt for the most arbitrary, flimsy reasons.
All of which might be a good thing
ilots may eventually force higher wages rather than join the diaspora.
Covid has taught that the expat life can come to an abrupt halt for the most arbitrary, flimsy reasons.
All of which might be a good thing
ilots may eventually force higher wages rather than join the diaspora.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 22nd Dec 2021 at 02:17.
I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.
Speaking from experience, becoming an expat is an ugly thing to do to yourself. Even emigrating to arguably the best country in the world is a choice that exacts a toll. A house in your native country is about as good as life gets, but many people only realise that after it is too late.
I have met plenty of pilots who hailed from real shit holes who still were wistfully nostalgic for the old country. Imagine how home sick you'd be leaving a joint like this to live in an actual shit hole.
I have met plenty of pilots who hailed from real shit holes who still were wistfully nostalgic for the old country. Imagine how home sick you'd be leaving a joint like this to live in an actual shit hole.
It all depends where you go. I’ve got many friends in Singapore and USA who seem very happy. They do plan on returning during retirement pending what the accountant says. It’s not all bad however it’s not all good either. Some of these people have become very financially comfortable, and can retire back home on much more vs what they would have had should they never have left. I don’t know many in the ME who are happy or financially that great sadly.
With a lack of overall bodies in the long run, it might be possible for the GA lad or girl of today, to do a stint abroad with a big twin, and be able to return home and take a narrow body job off the bat. Unless you ‘know people’, returning home in recent times and picking something in the left seat, let alone the right seat, was very rare. Start ups was the real only way of getting a job back here, and you need to know people. Tiger originally crewed expats from Hong Kong and it appears Bonza will do the same looking at where it’s Management are from. Once you go, you don’t come back was generally the rule.
With a lack of overall bodies in the long run, it might be possible for the GA lad or girl of today, to do a stint abroad with a big twin, and be able to return home and take a narrow body job off the bat. Unless you ‘know people’, returning home in recent times and picking something in the left seat, let alone the right seat, was very rare. Start ups was the real only way of getting a job back here, and you need to know people. Tiger originally crewed expats from Hong Kong and it appears Bonza will do the same looking at where it’s Management are from. Once you go, you don’t come back was generally the rule.
I imagine that the USA is about the only possibility for GA or even junior LCC crew to improve their incomes. The E3 visa program is a gift to Aussies, and it seems that the US will need thousands of pilots for the foreseeable future, with potential for a permanent residency and a legacy carrier job. Others may have the right to work in Europe or the UK, but I think the pay & conditions there are pretty poor.
I don’t know how many LCC F/Os here would emigrate to join the bottom of an E jet list despite the rather more interesting follow on opportunities. As the saying goes: “It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future”.
I don’t know how many LCC F/Os here would emigrate to join the bottom of an E jet list despite the rather more interesting follow on opportunities. As the saying goes: “It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future”.
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.
Although an integration into one list like the Qantas and Australian pilots in 1994 would be the ideal that time seems to be a one off. The trend ever since has definitely been to to expand to as many entities as possible.
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
I'd say travel to Eastern Europe may be down over the next few months but the rest of the world will be doing fine.
Qantas would never allow it. The whole point is to keep the group split. That way if anyone gets any cheeky ideas come EBA time all the company has to do is slip the "XYZ are happy to do it for this, so if you're not going to negotiate we'll just give it to them"
integration robs them of that card. Think of it as QFs version of mutually assured destruction 🤔
integration robs them of that card. Think of it as QFs version of mutually assured destruction 🤔
It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.
I don’t believe that there is a “snowballs chance in hell” of seeing any joining of seniority lists of QF Group anytime soon.
Maybe, and it’s a slim Maybe, after the “Project Sunrise” and “Project Winton” aircraft and pay scales are bedded in, at a pay rate closer to Jetstar than QF, and the post Covid “Project Recovery” targets have been met, it may be beneficial to bring everyone onto the same list.
But why do that?
Having all these separate entities is the greatest industrial wedge they have had ever.
Without any “Scope” clauses, they just send the flying to the cheapest and most desperate entity and watch the desperation hit those that missed out.
Sure, it costs them a bit in training as pilots move around the group airlines, but that is a small (tax deductible) price to pay for longer term lower wages.
