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Network F100 busting minima, Paraburdoo

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Network F100 busting minima, Paraburdoo

Old 12th Dec 2021, 03:17
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
And now we see this, Deck chair shuffle at Network aviation

Whether related to this incident or an earlier string of incidents, no doubt this will be the ďfixĒ and theyíll try to continue ďbusiness as usualĒ.
Was it a "push", or was it a "jump"......
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 03:37
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
They should all pretty much be RNP capable. Edificate yourself on what RNP means these days and the capabilities of LNAV/VNAV. RNP-AR is an entirely different thing.
Thank you so much. RNP-AR are different. So glad I know that now after all these years of flying them.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 03:43
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Originally Posted by Alt Flieger View Post
Thank you so much. RNP-AR are different. So glad I know that now after all these years of flying them.
Based on your previous posts I too question your knowledge. RNAV (RNP) approaches can be 2D or 3D and flown by F100, A320 and B737 aircraft. Not just those special QF NGs.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 03:52
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
Based on your previous posts I too question your knowledge. RNAV (RNP) approaches can be 2D or 3D and flown by F100, A320 and B737 aircraft. Not just those special QF NGs.
The original QF tailored charts had minima close to Cat 1. The generic charts today are a compromise to accomodate all types.
Iím amused that you ď question my knowledgeĒ.
Iím retired now with 20,0000 hrs. I will leave you geniuses to it. Bye.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 04:37
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ActiveLocker. I donít know when ALT retired, but originally QF 737 NGís were the only aircraft in Australia that could operate RNP (that was even before the AR was added to the name) approaches. The Jepp charts used to have ďQF 737-800 onlyĒ or something like that written at the top of the charts. The approaches you are referring to were originally called GNSS approaches, and anybody who has been around for probably 5 years or more would most likely still use those names. I know I do. Canít think of anybody, other that sim instructors that use the 2D and 3D terms. Youíre obviousy newer than him at this, so maybe just tone down the know it all attitude out of respect for others. There was a world before you got here.

Cheers

Last edited by Chad Gates; 12th Dec 2021 at 04:49.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 04:55
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Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
ActiveLocker. I donít know when ALT retired, but originally QF 737 NGís were the only aircraft in Australia that could operate RNP (that was even before the AR was added to the name) approaches. The Jepp charts used to have ďQF 737-800 onlyĒ or something like that written at the top of the charts. The approaches you are referring to were originally called GNSS approaches, and anybody who has been around for probably 5 years or more would most likely still use those names. I know I do. Canít think of anybody, other that sim instructors that use the 2D and 3D terms. Youíre obviousy newer than him at this, so maybe just tone down the know it all attitude out of respect for others. There was a world before you got here.

Cheers
perhaps you should read the twats responses to others, not just my posts before you defend the poor old airman. VA B737s, F100s, A320s, all international wide bodies and corporate jets have been doing RNAV approaches for years. 2D/3D terminology isnít new either Einstein. Perhaps explain LNAV and LNAV/VNAV minima differences whilst you are providing an education. If itís only simulator instructors that know the terms 2D/3D then our industry is worse than I expect.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 05:04
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
perhaps you should read the twats responses to others, not just my posts before you defend the poor old airman. VA B737s, F100s, A320s, all international wide bodies and corporate jets have been doing RNAV approaches for years. 2D/3D terminology isnít new either Einstein. Perhaps explain LNAV and LNAV/VNAV minima differences whilst you are providing an education. If itís only simulator instructors that know the terms 2D/3D then our industry is worse than I expect.
Heh heh, you are obviously going to do well in the industry. Perfect profile. Not. I used to sit on selection panels. Good luck. LOL !
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 05:07
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GNSS LNAV goes to an MDA. GNSS LNAV/ VNAV goes to a DA. Simple. And yes it is new, at least in Australia it is. We have been operating RNP-AR approaches from around 2008. We were the first in Australia to do it. That’s a fact. Haven’t got a clue what airlines around the world do. I work for Qantas.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 06:17
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Originally Posted by Alt Flieger View Post
Heh heh, you are obviously going to do well in the industry. Perfect profile. Not. I used to sit on selection panels. Good luck. LOL !
Wow, can I bow down to you and your 20,000hrs?

Have you ever operated outside of WA with those 20,000hrs?

RNP LNAV/VNAV (3D, ohh shit sorry, Iím not a sim instructor, Iíve just kept up with the regulations) approaches can have bloody low decision altitudes. One small airport that I regularly go to is down to about 300ft. No special approvals needed, in fact some of them make RNP-ARís look unnecessary and outdated.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 06:23
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Wow, can I bow down to you and your 20,000hrs?

Have you ever operated outside of WA with those 20,000hrs?

RNP LNAV/VNAV (3D, ohh shit sorry, Iím not a sim instructor, Iíve just kept up with the regulations) approaches can have bloody low decision altitudes. One small airport that I regularly go to is down to about 300ft. No special approvals needed, in fact some of them make RNP-ARís look unnecessary and outdated.
Heh Heh. I really donít care.
Ive done it all.
Donít have to prove anything to anybody.
Happily retired.
Content with my career.

Knock yourself out.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 06:26
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Originally Posted by Alt Flieger View Post
Heh Heh. I really donít care.
Ive done it all.
Donít have to prove anything to anybody.
Happily retired.
Content with my career.

Knock yourself out.
Well off you toddle then, bye bye.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 06:27
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Wow, can I bow down to you and your 20,000hrs?

Have you ever operated outside of WA with those 20,000hrs?

RNP LNAV/VNAV (3D, ohh shit sorry, Iím not a sim instructor, Iíve just kept up with the regulations) approaches can have bloody low decision altitudes. One small airport that I regularly go to is down to about 300ft. No special approvals needed, in fact some of them make RNP-ARís look unnecessary and outdated.
Letís bow down together Morno. Iím even more impressed that he has been on selection panels. Must be because of his 20,000+ hours and experience in Nepal.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 06:32
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
Letís bow down together Morno. Iím even more impressed that he has been on selection panels. Must be because of his 20,000+ hours and experience in Nepal.
Heh Heh,, so bitter and twisted so young. Lighten up people. Not necessary to bow down. Ive had a good run. Difference between you and me is that I hope for the same for others !
Not toddling off. Golf game is still pretty good.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 13:10
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Originally Posted by Morno
RNP LNAV/VNAV (3D, ohh shit sorry, I’m not a sim instructor, I’ve just kept up with the regulations) approaches can have bloody low decision altitudes. One small airport that I regularly go to is down to about 300ft. No special approvals needed, in fact some of them make RNP-AR’s look unnecessary and outdated.
Curious. Which port?
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 22:32
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Curious. Which port?
Burketown in the Gulf. 279ft AGL to be exact, Cat A-C.
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Old 12th Dec 2021, 23:51
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RNP-AR really comes into their own when thereís terrain or obstacles around. Not much of that happening in Burketown Morno, hence the minima you describe.
In the case of Paraburdoo with terrain around, an RNP-AR would be worthwhile and potentially knock a couple of hundred feet off the LNAV/VNAV minima. But a busted arse 30 year old Fokker canít do them anyway so itís not really relevant to this discussion.
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Old 13th Dec 2021, 00:39
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Missing the point

Originally Posted by Transition Layer View Post
RNP-AR really comes into their own when thereís terrain or obstacles around. Not much of that happening in Burketown Morno, hence the minima you describe.
In the case of Paraburdoo with terrain around, an RNP-AR would be worthwhile and potentially knock a couple of hundred feet off the LNAV/VNAV minima. But a busted arse 30 year old Fokker canít do them anyway so itís not really relevant to this discussion.
The root cause was not the approach availability in PBO it was the lack of planning and inability to make a decision when backed into a corner. 60mins holding to then miss out and not have divert fuel is unacceptable. KTA, SLJ, GBW, ZNE all CAVOK and 15-20 mins away, even in an old bucket of bolts Fokker.
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Old 13th Dec 2021, 01:53
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
The root cause was not the approach availability in PBO it was the lack of planning and inability to make a decision when backed into a corner. 60mins holding to then miss out and not have divert fuel is unacceptable. KTA, SLJ, GBW, ZNE all CAVOK and 15-20 mins away, even in an old bucket of bolts Fokker.
I tend to agree, the final report will be interesting reading. My post was simply in relation to Mornoís stuff about LNAV/VNAV minima vs RNP-AR minima and how it might apply somewhere like Paraburdoo.
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Old 13th Dec 2021, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer View Post
RNP-AR really comes into their own when thereís terrain or obstacles around. Not much of that happening in Burketown Morno, hence the minima you describe.
In the case of Paraburdoo with terrain around, an RNP-AR would be worthwhile and potentially knock a couple of hundred feet off the LNAV/VNAV minima. But a busted arse 30 year old Fokker canít do them anyway so itís not really relevant to this discussion.
Agreed, thanks TL. I was more responding to old mate who was blabbing on about QF 737ís being the only ones who could fly RNP procedures, when RNP is the normal (soon to be) standard name for any GPS approach.
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Old 13th Dec 2021, 13:11
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Originally Posted by Morno
I was more responding to old mate who was blabbing on about QF 737’s being the only ones who could fly RNP procedures
Old mate was basically right though. QF 737s were doing things with GPS and FMS that you could only dream of a few years ago. You can call your GPS-NPA an RNP yada yada whatever all you like, the fact is that an RNP-AR, which QF has been doing for years, is a far more effective approach using GPS. As pointed out, your LNAV/VNAV straight in from 10nm with not a hill in sight is a far cry from an RNP-AR amoungst terrain. Even the shorter tracking makes a difference when you're paying the bills, especially given the nature of this topic. Try doing an LNAV/VNAV onto 17 at Canberra. I'll take old mate's "unnecessary and outdated" (your words) RNP-AR, thanks.
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