New 'Bonza' LCC launches middle 2022 with B737 MAX
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 136
I recall as a domestic Australian airline pilot, CASA required a circling approach off an NPA as part of your 90 day sim proficiency. It was singe engine and 500 feet. Nobody in their right mind would circle in those circumstances, it was a skill-set that maintained the high levels of airline handling proficiency on reflection. The skill-set is transferable to other scenarios.
QF stated becoming more involved in domestic flying and I am not sure if the exercises dropped however when QF’s Jensen took over Ansett the sim was reduced to six monthly and the program less demanding.
I went abroad and flew with two different Cadet airlines. The first totally banned circling and visual approaches as the skills too low. The second still required circling approach proficiency though eventually dropped the requirement as the pilot group struggled and this streamlined training costs.
All this was this century! We are dumbing down the job to keep wages low.
QF stated becoming more involved in domestic flying and I am not sure if the exercises dropped however when QF’s Jensen took over Ansett the sim was reduced to six monthly and the program less demanding.
I went abroad and flew with two different Cadet airlines. The first totally banned circling and visual approaches as the skills too low. The second still required circling approach proficiency though eventually dropped the requirement as the pilot group struggled and this streamlined training costs.
All this was this century! We are dumbing down the job to keep wages low.
I recall well trained cadet pilots being let loose in Mach 2.5 flying machines that weighed the same as a fully loaded DC-9 at age 19 straight after wings awarded.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 47
No. After pilots course off to IFC, If successful then off to the bomber or fighter conversion course of about 6 months. Once that is done into a highly supervised and authorised Cat system that restricted operations and who you could be crewed with. No where near the same. Plus training all the way through is more thorough, intense and with a higher performance standard. MPL not so much. Are some here actually saying that unlike any job in the world an airline pilot job requires little experience or that experience is of no value?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,999
No. After pilots course off to IFC, If successful then off to the bomber or fighter conversion course of about 6 months. Once that is done into a highly supervised and authorised Cat system that restricted operations and who you could be crewed with. No where near the same. Plus training all the way through is more thorough, intense and with a higher performance standard. MPL not so much. Are some here actually saying that unlike any job in the world an airline pilot job requires little experience or that experience is of no value?
It hasn't always been like now.
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Sydney
Posts: 23
Great points Equaliser - one often hears quotes along the lines of 21 year old guys let loose in high powered twin engine fast jets. Must be remembered, and as a former RAAFie trash hauler, I hate to say it - the best off RAAF pilots course get selected for knucks. Once proven on the very intense pilot's course, they then go to a very, very intense intro fighter course, and then super intense and very long operational course, followed then by the Cat system. I know you said all this, but I just want to reiterate to those not in the know, a B Cat fast jet driver has slaved his guts out, been scrutinized very intensely and has to prove himself for quite a few years. They earn it. I got offered a shot at the Hornet as a re role in 1992 but said no. I was just too lazy, and I enjoyed just haulin' grunts and drinikin beer under a coconut tree. Oh.....and I don't think I was talented enough either.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: The bush
Posts: 241
Last edited by The Banjo; 19th Jun 2022 at 12:07.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,999
Unfortunately a lot of the former don't understand this until they become the later.
Both have a cool view from the window though.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 993
You don't have to have 1500 hours as in FAA land, or thousands of hours in GA land as Australia, or have been a Fast Jet ace, to be a competent and safe airline co pilot. For many years in Europe, (EasyJet/BA for example) 250 plus hour "Cadet Pilots" have gone straight into the RHS of B737/Airbus A320 family, on two pilot operations.
It's the selection and training that matter, not thousands of hours instructing in a C172 for example.
In my UK airline, after rigorous selection and after 200 hours or so in a flight trying school, attaining ATPL exams and an MEP I/R they started their airline careers.
Firstly a normal Type Rating technical and and Sim Course. Then Base Training on type covering all emergency ops required for two pilot crewing. (We don't employ partially trained S/O/Cruise pilots)
Then up to 50 line training sector's with training and supervisory Capts. When released to normal line operations they are then not rostered with new Capts. for the first 6 months. These "cadet pilots" have since carried out long safe careers, the first examples retiring as Concord and B747 Capts. for example.
Its the training not the hours that count.
It's the selection and training that matter, not thousands of hours instructing in a C172 for example.
In my UK airline, after rigorous selection and after 200 hours or so in a flight trying school, attaining ATPL exams and an MEP I/R they started their airline careers.
Firstly a normal Type Rating technical and and Sim Course. Then Base Training on type covering all emergency ops required for two pilot crewing. (We don't employ partially trained S/O/Cruise pilots)
Then up to 50 line training sector's with training and supervisory Capts. When released to normal line operations they are then not rostered with new Capts. for the first 6 months. These "cadet pilots" have since carried out long safe careers, the first examples retiring as Concord and B747 Capts. for example.
Its the training not the hours that count.
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: tossbagville
Posts: 405
They really aren't.
It's amusing to watch just how mad that reality makes the more deluded amongst you.
It's not my fault you've made this so entertaining.

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 2,099
Education to do the job aside, perhaps let’s look at the more important details, such as the fact that we’re moving at close to 1,000km/h in a 70-250T machine, within an ever changing environment, where experience will be the driver between a good decision or a bad decision.
Plus the fact that we’re flying machines that cost between $20-500M, and the ease at which we can cost the company a lot of money extra per hour when bad decisions are made.
Perhaps that’s why we’re asking for some respect and decent pay Das.
I know I have a dig every now and then about Pilot pays, but farrrk me, you’ve taken the cake this time. Even I completely disagree with your attempt at justifying your position.
Plus the fact that we’re flying machines that cost between $20-500M, and the ease at which we can cost the company a lot of money extra per hour when bad decisions are made.
Perhaps that’s why we’re asking for some respect and decent pay Das.
I know I have a dig every now and then about Pilot pays, but farrrk me, you’ve taken the cake this time. Even I completely disagree with your attempt at justifying your position.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: aus gold
Posts: 96
I think you will find how crew present is well down the list of current passengers perception of a professional airline. Getting to your destination on time including with your bag would rate just under number 1, the cheapest fare possible. Not having to be on hold to customer service for 5 hours and then find they cannot help would be up there as well. Cheapest, service, convenience are new society requirements probably along with some air-head influencers professional recommendation. I don't even think safety rates anymore in choice of airline. It is assumed all Australian airlines are as safe as each other.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,741
You don't have to have 1500 hours as in FAA land, or thousands of hours in GA land as Australia, or have been a Fast Jet ace, to be a competent and safe airline co pilot. For many years in Europe, (EasyJet/BA for example) 250 plus hour "Cadet Pilots" have gone straight into the RHS of B737/Airbus A320 family, on two pilot operations.
It's the selection and training that matter, not thousands of hours instructing in a C172 for example.
It's the selection and training that matter, not thousands of hours instructing in a C172 for example.
However we’ve had cadet programs in operation in Australia since the 60s, and the rest of the world bar the US and some other places virtually only use ab initio trained pilots, but no statistically significant patterns in pilot error caused accidents.
As for the “I’ve flown as PIC with cadets and non cadets and it’s clear the former are useless in an emergency”, how do you think Captains survive in the many large and well respected airlines where they basically only employ cadets? Two cadets in the same flight deck?? Planes should be spearing in constantly. But BA38 and UA178 pilots were cadets. AA965 and AA1420 were ex military.......
Anyway back to the original point of the thread. Upon further inspection of Bonza’s uniform launch I think a crisis has been averted. The female pilot used for the launch is not wearing white sneakers, but a pair of normal black leather shoes. So at least pilots seem to have a choice to not wear those footwear abominations.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 484
Dumbing it down so that they can use someone with say 6 weeks training to sit alone in a cockpit of what is effectively a UAV with 300 passengers is the inevitable end. And that very same button pusher can also help clean up the cabin post flight. This is the future of the pilot”profession”.
The cartoon below always brings a smile to my face when I endure one of those “did we just land or were we shot down” arrivals which seem to occur with alarming frequency.

Replace RyanAir with the LCA of your choice.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,741
We all love to bash Ryanair huh......
Almost double the fleet size of the total Australian domestic airline capacity, operate in more congested airspace, in a more challenging human environment (multiple cultures and first languages amongst crew, ATC and ground staff), in an environment with a real winter full of snow and ice and a real mountain range (the Alps) running through the continent. They fly to some challenging airports (Madeira, Skiathos). IMO a more difficult operating environment than Australia.
And they’ve operated in that environment without a hull loss or fatality due pilot error (only one hull loss due severe birdstrikes). They do all of this mostly with 200 hour F/O’s and then promotions to Captain after having several years experience as an F/O.
Almost double the fleet size of the total Australian domestic airline capacity, operate in more congested airspace, in a more challenging human environment (multiple cultures and first languages amongst crew, ATC and ground staff), in an environment with a real winter full of snow and ice and a real mountain range (the Alps) running through the continent. They fly to some challenging airports (Madeira, Skiathos). IMO a more difficult operating environment than Australia.
And they’ve operated in that environment without a hull loss or fatality due pilot error (only one hull loss due severe birdstrikes). They do all of this mostly with 200 hour F/O’s and then promotions to Captain after having several years experience as an F/O.
Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jun 2022 at 01:33.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: BBN
Posts: 797
We all love to bash Ryanair huh......
Almost double the fleet size of the total Australian domestic airline capacity, operate in more congested airspace, in a more challenging human environment (multiple cultures and first languages amongst crew, ATC and ground staff), in an environment with a real winter full of snow and ice. Fly to some challenging airports (Madeira, Skiathos). IMO in a more difficult operating environment than Australia.
And they’ve operated in that environment without a hull loss or fatality due pilot error (only one hull loss due severe birdstrikes). They do all of this mostly with 200 hour F/O’s and then promotions to Captain after having several years experience as an F/O.
Almost double the fleet size of the total Australian domestic airline capacity, operate in more congested airspace, in a more challenging human environment (multiple cultures and first languages amongst crew, ATC and ground staff), in an environment with a real winter full of snow and ice. Fly to some challenging airports (Madeira, Skiathos). IMO in a more difficult operating environment than Australia.
And they’ve operated in that environment without a hull loss or fatality due pilot error (only one hull loss due severe birdstrikes). They do all of this mostly with 200 hour F/O’s and then promotions to Captain after having several years experience as an F/O.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,741
Oh yeah. Can you imagine a 200 hour ab initio pilot in the right seat with a Captain with maybe only 4000 hours TT and 5 years professional experience taking 189 passengers behind them into an Alps ringed airport like Salzburg or Innsbruck during a winter storm? You don’t need to imagine because Ryanair and every other Euro carrier does it daily without needing Austronaughts in the flight deck.
Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jun 2022 at 02:03.
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,182
And a quick review of the plate tells you that you don’t do it in the middle of a winter storm period.
Anyway, off to have lunch with my medical student nephew. He's in second year and already assigned to clinical duties. Let that be a lesson to all you cadets…you are no better than a filthy scum doctor.
Anyway, off to have lunch with my medical student nephew. He's in second year and already assigned to clinical duties. Let that be a lesson to all you cadets…you are no better than a filthy scum doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,988
The supersonic teenager examples are churlish now and always have been and will be. The resources to get the Mark Fallons RIP of the world and the small number who followed are extensive and impossible to replicate in the civilian world. I did fly with Eastern Bloc airline cadets that had military like investment in their cadet programmes however these schemes long gone as are the Communist-bloc airlines.
So for the supersonic teenager you have a class of 30 say. 15 are scrubbed. A few are suitable for fighters of which another few are scrubbed and you now have a fast jet pilot who still isn’t ready for the job. An absurd comparison.
It’s not going to go away so let’s consider a weighted comparison to a civilian cadet program? If all you wanted to do was fly an F35 or Super Hornet from A to B, with a high level of instrument competency being able to manage an abnormal, it wouldn’t take long and probably the same time as a civilian cadet.
The truth behind cadet programs I’ve seen is you have a very extensive and fat training system. A budget of 150K of training slowly gets razored to under 100K as segments of the program deemed unnecessary. In a rapidly expanding airline where commands possible within 5 years it’s a scramble to get these cadets to command standard. The shortcuts in their original training leaves substantial gaps in civilian command training which is rarely good enough to spoon feed or closely guide the level of organisational training you may get in the military.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 20th Jun 2022 at 03:32.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
Posts: 957
Papering over the cracks of a teetering or weak SMS by pointing to the hull loss record makes me think of management who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I'm not suggesting there is a problem at Ryanair, just that the basis of your argument is flawed.