Qantas domestic fleet: A320neo vs B737MAX
I don’t have any safety fears wrt the B737 Max but there are a few things in favour of the A320 series and the big one is the cabin width. For pax, the middle seat on a B737 is not a nice place to be whereas the extra 50mm seat width on the A320 is reasonably comfortable. Airline management are continually looking at passenger feedback and this issue always comes up.
Additionally, Joyce has stated that some of the A321 LR’s & XLR’s that have been ordered could end up in mainline, effectively filling a mid sized seating & range capacity that has been missing since the B767 was retired. Management have been after an aircraft to fit between the B737-800 & the A330-200 for quite some time and this is the only aircraft available now that meets this requirement. If these are flown by mainline domestic crew then it would make sense to replace the B737-800’s with a mix of A320 & A321’s thus having a single endorsement for the domestic pilots (after the B737 has been completely replaced which will take many years due to the varying ages of that fleet).
The cost of maintenance and spare parts inventory would be lower for the A320/321 as it would be able to be pooled with the large Jetstar fleet’s needs. You could also surmise that EFA fleet could end up operating a larger A321P2F fleet (replacing the elderly B737 freighters) which would also benefit from lower maintenance/spares costs.
The A320/321 has containerised baggage handling which assists greatly in minimising turn around times as well as keeping bags dry in wet weather & permitting freight to be carried more regularly. Currently, freight will not be carried on the B737’s if there is a risk that the time to load it manually will cause the turn around time to be exceeded.
Basically, the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think it’s the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rival’s.
As my handle indicates, I am firmly entrenched in the pro Boeing lobby but, after analysing all the information, there’s no way that I think the B737 Max would be the right aircraft for Qantas.
Additionally, Joyce has stated that some of the A321 LR’s & XLR’s that have been ordered could end up in mainline, effectively filling a mid sized seating & range capacity that has been missing since the B767 was retired. Management have been after an aircraft to fit between the B737-800 & the A330-200 for quite some time and this is the only aircraft available now that meets this requirement. If these are flown by mainline domestic crew then it would make sense to replace the B737-800’s with a mix of A320 & A321’s thus having a single endorsement for the domestic pilots (after the B737 has been completely replaced which will take many years due to the varying ages of that fleet).
The cost of maintenance and spare parts inventory would be lower for the A320/321 as it would be able to be pooled with the large Jetstar fleet’s needs. You could also surmise that EFA fleet could end up operating a larger A321P2F fleet (replacing the elderly B737 freighters) which would also benefit from lower maintenance/spares costs.
The A320/321 has containerised baggage handling which assists greatly in minimising turn around times as well as keeping bags dry in wet weather & permitting freight to be carried more regularly. Currently, freight will not be carried on the B737’s if there is a risk that the time to load it manually will cause the turn around time to be exceeded.
Basically, the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think it’s the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rival’s.
As my handle indicates, I am firmly entrenched in the pro Boeing lobby but, after analysing all the information, there’s no way that I think the B737 Max would be the right aircraft for Qantas.
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
Qantas to operate a handful of cheap Max’s’ and Network to operate the 100+ Neos.
Originally Posted by Going Boeing
I don’t have any safety fears wrt the B737 Max but...
...the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think it’s the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rival’s.
...the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think it’s the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rival’s.
would be the better choice all around.
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
Agree with this. A320
would be the better choice all around.
would be the better choice all around.
If it’s A321s vs the larger Max types then you’re potentially introducing something completely different however.
I remember one flight on a QF B737, sitting in the rear row of seats, all three of us couldn't sit back at the same time. I was in the middle and had to lean forward slightly due to lack of shoulder space. Thankfully it was only BNE - SYD.
Originally Posted by ExtraShot
Not sure they are. I’m not an expert on the Max but I assume the cabin space on the -8 is roughly the same as the -800, and qantas fit 174 seats, 12 of those business, with galleys that provide a ‘full’ (ish) meal service, and while the economy class has a relatively uncomfortable 30inch pitch I don’t think A320s can quite fit that. Jetstar I think squeeze in 180 to 189 seats at a much tighter pitch. The extra row or two after you put in 12 premium seats make a significant difference to the cost equation, and airlines care more about that than having to touch shoulders with the person next to you.
Most of your discussion is about seat pitch where the B737-800 (& Max equivlent) has a slight advantage over the A320 in cabin length resulting in probably one more row of seats in a mainline Premium configuration but this can be easily countered by deploying A321's on higher capacity routes (& peak times). In general, they would deploy the appropriate sized aircraft to suit the demand so one less row of seats may not be as significant a factor.
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Seattle will want a QF order/replacement for whatever follows the MAX so if they need to lose cash on this order then so be it. Otherwise they have lost a narrow body customer for a very long time.
I can’t see the A320N getting a series 2, so when 2050 rolls around and Airbus and Boeing are rolling out the next gen narrow body, bit hard for QF to swing back Boeing if they have a sole fleet 200 A32X machines. I’d expect very little in the way of crew conversion training for A320 to whatever replaces it, however can’t say the same about Boeing.
I can’t see the A320N getting a series 2, so when 2050 rolls around and Airbus and Boeing are rolling out the next gen narrow body, bit hard for QF to swing back Boeing if they have a sole fleet 200 A32X machines. I’d expect very little in the way of crew conversion training for A320 to whatever replaces it, however can’t say the same about Boeing.
Originally Posted by Going Boeing
The B737 has a narrower cabin than the A320 which means that each economy seat is approx 50mm narrower than the seats on an A320 - this makes a significant difference to passenger comfort, especially in the middle seat and manageement are very aware of this through normal pax feedback. The ceiling of the A320 is higher, and thus allows the overhead bins to be mounted higher giving a more spacious appeal, not the sardine can effect on the B737.
Most of your discussion is about seat pitch where the B737-800 (& Max equivlent) has a slight advantage over the A320 in cabin length resulting in probably one more row of seats in a mainline Premium configuration but this can be easily countered by deploying A321's on higher capacity routes (& peak times). In general, they would deploy the appropriate sized aircraft to suit the demand so one less row of seats may not be as significant a factor.
Most of your discussion is about seat pitch where the B737-800 (& Max equivlent) has a slight advantage over the A320 in cabin length resulting in probably one more row of seats in a mainline Premium configuration but this can be easily countered by deploying A321's on higher capacity routes (& peak times). In general, they would deploy the appropriate sized aircraft to suit the demand so one less row of seats may not be as significant a factor.
Actually I think it’s more like 3-4 rows extra than any A320 that I can find that has 12 business seats, and with galley space that can support service for a 5-odd hour sector. Thats 18-24 extra passengers for practically the same operating cost. AND the discounts on the MAX are likely to be huge.
Again, your shoulder space will hardly come in to the equation, because the competition is going to be flying exactly the same equipment - 737s...
The MAX is a very likely choice, though I wouldn’t be surprised at some longer range 321s being included as well.
Originally Posted by Going Boeing
The B737 has a narrower cabin than the A320 which means that each economy seat is approx 50mm narrower than the seats on an A320 - this makes a significant difference to passenger comfort, especially in the middle seat and manageement are very aware of this through normal pax feedback. The ceiling of the A320 is higher, and thus allows the overhead bins to be mounted higher giving a more spacious appeal, not the sardine can effect on the B737.
But since 90% of the flying public only pays attention to ticket price - not comfort - the aircraft that's cheaper to buy and operate that will get the nod.
4700nm in a narrow body ???
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Originally Posted by Ken Borough
Although the distances were shorter but before the 747 came along, everyone travelled in what we call today a 'narrow-body'. I've absolutely no recollection of anyone ever comparing about the lack of comfort in a B707 or DC8. I think people are much softer and more spoit in 2021 than they were 40 or 50+ years ago! Our ancestors, wherever they are, must be laughing at us.
Flying the B737NG Brisbane Perth in winter was my absolute limit.
Thats 1951nm.
Hope its got a crew rest.
Surely KB's comments are just as relevant for the crew as they were for the pax?
That goes for the pilots as well apparently.
I think people are much softer and more spoit in 2021 than they were 40 or 50+ years ago!
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
Surely KB's comments are just as relevant for the crew as they were for the pax?
That goes for the pilots as well apparently.
That goes for the pilots as well apparently.
Not about being soft.
There are limits.
4700nm at 450kts is 10 hours.
No Longhaul Pilot sits in the seat for 10 hours.
Like I said , time to retire if thats the future.
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Originally Posted by slice
About 2012 Virgin tried on PER - DPS - (BNE SYD MEL ADL) departing PER around 8 pm. Didn't last long of course when crew would get off fatigued in DPS at midnight.
40 or 50 years ago flying was a huge adventure and you were so awed by the experience that seat comfort was a minor consideration. Now even bogans fly relatively frequently.
People are increasingly knowledgeable and may choose to avoid certain seating arrangements such as 10 across on a B777 unless the price is very favourable.
People are increasingly knowledgeable and may choose to avoid certain seating arrangements such as 10 across on a B777 unless the price is very favourable.
