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Qantas domestic fleet: A320neo vs B737MAX

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Qantas domestic fleet: A320neo vs B737MAX

Old 16th Mar 2021, 23:35
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I donít have any safety fears wrt the B737 Max but there are a few things in favour of the A320 series and the big one is the cabin width. For pax, the middle seat on a B737 is not a nice place to be whereas the extra 50mm seat width on the A320 is reasonably comfortable. Airline management are continually looking at passenger feedback and this issue always comes up.

Additionally, Joyce has stated that some of the A321 LRís & XLRís that have been ordered could end up in mainline, effectively filling a mid sized seating & range capacity that has been missing since the B767 was retired. Management have been after an aircraft to fit between the B737-800 & the A330-200 for quite some time and this is the only aircraft available now that meets this requirement. If these are flown by mainline domestic crew then it would make sense to replace the B737-800ís with a mix of A320 & A321ís thus having a single endorsement for the domestic pilots (after the B737 has been completely replaced which will take many years due to the varying ages of that fleet).

The cost of maintenance and spare parts inventory would be lower for the A320/321 as it would be able to be pooled with the large Jetstar fleetís needs. You could also surmise that EFA fleet could end up operating a larger A321P2F fleet (replacing the elderly B737 freighters) which would also benefit from lower maintenance/spares costs.

The A320/321 has containerised baggage handling which assists greatly in minimising turn around times as well as keeping bags dry in wet weather & permitting freight to be carried more regularly. Currently, freight will not be carried on the B737ís if there is a risk that the time to load it manually will cause the turn around time to be exceeded.

Basically, the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think itís the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rivalís.

As my handle indicates, I am firmly entrenched in the pro Boeing lobby but, after analysing all the information, thereís no way that I think the B737 Max would be the right aircraft for Qantas.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 04:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Qantas to operate a handful of cheap Maxísí and Network to operate the 100+ Neos.
I think sanity will prevail, but itís a great carrot/stick for the IR muppets to play with!
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 04:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
I donít have any safety fears wrt the B737 Max but...
...the A320 is superior to the B737 in so many areas that I think itís the obvious choice for Qantas. Boeing should have designed a brand new aircraft instead of developing the Max as there is nothing they can do with such an old fuselage design to make it a better aircraft than their rivalís.
Agree with this. A320
would be the better choice all around.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 05:04
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Agree with this. A320
would be the better choice all around.
Not sure they are. Iím not an expert on the Max but I assume the cabin space on the -8 is roughly the same as the -800, and qantas fit 174 seats, 12 of those business, with galleys that provide a Ďfullí (ish) meal service, and while the economy class has a relatively uncomfortable 30inch pitch I donít think A320s can quite fit that. Jetstar I think squeeze in 180 to 189 seats at a much tighter pitch. The extra row or two after you put in 12 premium seats make a significant difference to the cost equation, and airlines care more about that than having to touch shoulders with the person next to you. Iím told qantas practically print money when those 737s run around on the transcontinental routes with decent loads, as much as the pax dislike them on the longer flights.

If itís A321s vs the larger Max types then youíre potentially introducing something completely different however.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 05:56
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I remember one flight on a QF B737, sitting in the rear row of seats, all three of us couldn't sit back at the same time. I was in the middle and had to lean forward slightly due to lack of shoulder space. Thankfully it was only BNE - SYD.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 07:05
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post
Not sure they are. I’m not an expert on the Max but I assume the cabin space on the -8 is roughly the same as the -800, and qantas fit 174 seats, 12 of those business, with galleys that provide a ‘full’ (ish) meal service, and while the economy class has a relatively uncomfortable 30inch pitch I don’t think A320s can quite fit that. Jetstar I think squeeze in 180 to 189 seats at a much tighter pitch. The extra row or two after you put in 12 premium seats make a significant difference to the cost equation, and airlines care more about that than having to touch shoulders with the person next to you.
The B737 has a narrower cabin than the A320 which means that each economy seat is approx 50mm narrower than the seats on an A320 - this makes a significant difference to passenger comfort, especially in the middle seat and manageement are very aware of this through normal pax feedback. The ceiling of the A320 is higher, and thus allows the overhead bins to be mounted higher giving a more spacious appeal, not the sardine can effect on the B737.

Most of your discussion is about seat pitch where the B737-800 (& Max equivlent) has a slight advantage over the A320 in cabin length resulting in probably one more row of seats in a mainline Premium configuration but this can be easily countered by deploying A321's on higher capacity routes (& peak times). In general, they would deploy the appropriate sized aircraft to suit the demand so one less row of seats may not be as significant a factor.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 08:21
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Seattle will want a QF order/replacement for whatever follows the MAX so if they need to lose cash on this order then so be it. Otherwise they have lost a narrow body customer for a very long time.

I canít see the A320N getting a series 2, so when 2050 rolls around and Airbus and Boeing are rolling out the next gen narrow body, bit hard for QF to swing back Boeing if they have a sole fleet 200 A32X machines. Iíd expect very little in the way of crew conversion training for A320 to whatever replaces it, however canít say the same about Boeing.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 01:07
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
The B737 has a narrower cabin than the A320 which means that each economy seat is approx 50mm narrower than the seats on an A320 - this makes a significant difference to passenger comfort, especially in the middle seat and manageement are very aware of this through normal pax feedback. The ceiling of the A320 is higher, and thus allows the overhead bins to be mounted higher giving a more spacious appeal, not the sardine can effect on the B737.

Most of your discussion is about seat pitch where the B737-800 (& Max equivlent) has a slight advantage over the A320 in cabin length resulting in probably one more row of seats in a mainline Premium configuration but this can be easily countered by deploying A321's on higher capacity routes (& peak times). In general, they would deploy the appropriate sized aircraft to suit the demand so one less row of seats may not be as significant a factor.

Actually I think itís more like 3-4 rows extra than any A320 that I can find that has 12 business seats, and with galley space that can support service for a 5-odd hour sector. Thats 18-24 extra passengers for practically the same operating cost. AND the discounts on the MAX are likely to be huge.

Again, your shoulder space will hardly come in to the equation, because the competition is going to be flying exactly the same equipment - 737s...

The MAX is a very likely choice, though I wouldnít be surprised at some longer range 321s being included as well.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 01:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
The B737 has a narrower cabin than the A320 which means that each economy seat is approx 50mm narrower than the seats on an A320 - this makes a significant difference to passenger comfort, especially in the middle seat and manageement are very aware of this through normal pax feedback. The ceiling of the A320 is higher, and thus allows the overhead bins to be mounted higher giving a more spacious appeal, not the sardine can effect on the B737.
Actually, the difference in seat width between an A320 series and a 737 is about half that - roughly an inch or 25mm (varies slightly depending on the seat vendor). I agree the extra width is significant and noticeable, but don't make it greater than it is.
But since 90% of the flying public only pays attention to ticket price - not comfort - the aircraft that's cheaper to buy and operate that will get the nod.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 01:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The B737 MAX 10 & A321XLR do have interesting comparisons.

https://mentourpilot.com/comparisons...vs-737-max-10/

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 05:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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4700nm in a narrow body ???
Good grief.
Time to retire.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 05:21
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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MEL-DPS-MEL in one shift! The Sunrise to Sunset shift.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 05:27
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4700nm in a narrow body ???
Although the distances were shorter but before the 747 came along, everyone travelled in what we call today a 'narrow-body'. I've absolutely no recollection of anyone ever comparing about the lack of comfort in a B707 or DC8. I think people are much softer and more spoit in 2021 than they were 40 or 50+ years ago! Our ancestors, wherever they are, must be laughing at us.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 06:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Borough View Post
Although the distances were shorter but before the 747 came along, everyone travelled in what we call today a 'narrow-body'. I've absolutely no recollection of anyone ever comparing about the lack of comfort in a B707 or DC8. I think people are much softer and more spoit in 2021 than they were 40 or 50+ years ago! Our ancestors, wherever they are, must be laughing at us.
I was thinking more of the crew.
Flying the B737NG Brisbane Perth in winter was my absolute limit.
Thats 1951nm.
Hope its got a crew rest.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 06:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Well, you canít do much of what is being thrown around here on the SH EA...such issues were raised which help sink the first company/association proposal.

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 07:00
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Surely KB's comments are just as relevant for the crew as they were for the pax?

I think people are much softer and more spoit in 2021 than they were 40 or 50+ years ago!
That goes for the pilots as well apparently.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 07:23
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Surely KB's comments are just as relevant for the crew as they were for the pax?



That goes for the pilots as well apparently.
The mob I work for used to do Perth - Jakarta return , 2 crew , B737NG ,back of the clock , departing late evening , landing at dawn. They gave it up after too many ASIRs and too much sick leave.
Not about being soft.
There are limits.
4700nm at 450kts is 10 hours.
No Longhaul Pilot sits in the seat for 10 hours.
Like I said , time to retire if thats the future.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 07:39
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About 2012 Virgin tried on PER - DPS - (BNE SYD MEL ADL) departing PER around 8 pm. Didn't last long of course when crew would get off fatigued in DPS at midnight.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 09:00
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Originally Posted by slice View Post
About 2012 Virgin tried on PER - DPS - (BNE SYD MEL ADL) departing PER around 8 pm. Didn't last long of course when crew would get off fatigued in DPS at midnight.
Geez thatís a bad one. I recall Jetstar doing something similar with Asian based CC on the widebody.

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 13:06
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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40 or 50 years ago flying was a huge adventure and you were so awed by the experience that seat comfort was a minor consideration. Now even bogans fly relatively frequently.

People are increasingly knowledgeable and may choose to avoid certain seating arrangements such as 10 across on a B777 unless the price is very favourable.
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