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Qatar disgrace

Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:19
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Originally Posted by HomeJames View Post
This is not a debate, this is now trolling.
I have certainly not engaged in trolling - I have called for restraint in comments prejudicial to Arabs (and which border on racism), the establishing of key facts prior to forming conclusions, and the balance between the rights of suspects and law enforcement in the investigation of a potentially serious offence. This is not the behaviour of a troll.

Of course, this nuanced stance has not been welcomed by those who prefer a more black-and-white world view in which Australia (or, presumably, other "Western" countries) is always right, and Arabs are sexist, Middle Ages barbarians.

The standard herein of debate, and indeed ability to synthesise facts and arguments into conclusions, is lamentable.

Last edited by KeyPilot; 27th Oct 2020 at 10:20. Reason: "middle ages" to "Middle Ages"
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:27
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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To be honest, Iím quite shocked that some pilots would defend this behaviour.

(Maybe itís true, and they are now the same as bus drivers)

The oddest bit of the thread is the bit where a pilot says he wouldnít mind if it was his wife or daughter.

I genuinely canít understand that.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:37
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
To be honest, Iím quite shocked that some pilots would defend this behaviour.

(Maybe itís true, and they are now the same as bus drivers)

The oddest bit of the thread is the bit where a pilot says he wouldnít mind if it was his wife or daughter.

I genuinely canít understand that.
If you're referring to my earlier post, you misinterpreted it.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:37
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
To be honest, Iím quite shocked that some pilots would defend this behaviour.

(Maybe itís true, and they are now the same as bus drivers)

The oddest bit of the thread is the bit where a pilot says he wouldnít mind if it was his wife or daughter.

I genuinely canít understand that.
I don't think anyone has defended what happened - I certainly haven't. I have called for more information and a judicious consideration of the matter.

On the other hand, plenty have rushed to critical judgement despite the lack of available facts.

Also I don't think anyone has said he wouldn't mind if it was his wife or daughter?
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:47
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Some people can justify anything.

From Human Rights Watch: Qatar’s personal status law discriminates against women in marriage, divorce, child custody, and inheritance. The law provides that women can only marry if a male guardian approves of the marriage; men have a unilateral right to divorce while requiring women to apply to the courts for divorce on limited grounds; and a wife is responsible for looking after the household and obeying her husband. Under inheritance provisions, female siblings receive half the amount their brothers get.

The penal code does not criminalize domestic violence or marital rape

Sounds pretty sexist and barbaric to me.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 11:02
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Some people can justify anything.

From Human Rights Watch: Qatarís personal status law discriminates against women in marriage, divorce, child custody, and inheritance. The law provides that women can only marry if a male guardian approves of the marriage; men have a unilateral right to divorce while requiring women to apply to the courts for divorce on limited grounds; and a wife is responsible for looking after the household and obeying her husband. Under inheritance provisions, female siblings receive half the amount their brothers get.

The penal code does not criminalize domestic violence or marital rape

Sounds pretty sexist and barbaric to me.
I am not sure anyone has justified anything on this thread?

That which you quote above is a function of Qatar law being based on Sharia law, the same is true of a few tens of countries around the world (UAE & Pakistan being two notable others). Undoubtedly Sharia law is sexist - there is no doubt about that. But it does not follow that Arabs are sexist, indeed I would argue society in many Arab countries is far ahead of the rather traditionalist stance of the law. This is usually the case - law lags society by decades or even centuries - the Australia Act being passed as recently as 1985, is a good example of this. Also, it was only relatively recently that martial rape became considered a crime in the UK, and most US States, so it is unfair to consider Qatar to be an outlier in this regard.

I expect that, over time, Arab countries will gradually liberalise their laws and societies and that women will achieve parity with men. We should not forget how relatively recently (and, indeed, incompletely) this is the case in the "West". But regarding the case at hand, I continue to advocate that we consider the facts, and leave aside any prejudices towards Arabs, which can only lead us to invalid conclusions.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:09
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Sharia Law and Qatar Law are primitive and sometimes barbaric.

They are indefensible.

And as for Qatar Airways.......morally repugnant
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:36
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Originally Posted by MissChief View Post
Sharia Law and Qatar Law are primitive and sometimes barbaric.

They are indefensible.

And as for Qatar Airways.......morally repugnant
Well, again, people who have that view are free to avoid becoming subject to Qatari Law by avoiding visiting Qatar or flying on Qatari-registered aircraft...
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:42
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Originally Posted by KeyPilot View Post
I am not sure anyone has justified anything on this thread?

That which you quote above is a function of Qatar law being based on Sharia law, the same is true of a few tens of countries around the world (UAE & Pakistan being two notable others). Undoubtedly Sharia law is sexist - there is no doubt about that. But it does not follow that Arabs are sexist, indeed I would argue society in many Arab countries is far ahead of the rather traditionalist stance of the law. This is usually the case - law lags society by decades or even centuries - the Australia Act being passed as recently as 1985, is a good example of this. Also, it was only relatively recently that martial rape became considered a crime in the UK, and most US States, so it is unfair to consider Qatar to be an outlier in this regard.

I expect that, over time, Arab countries will gradually liberalise their laws and societies and that women will achieve parity with men. We should not forget how relatively recently (and, indeed, incompletely) this is the case in the "West". But regarding the case at hand, I continue to advocate that we consider the facts, and leave aside any prejudices towards Arabs, which can only lead us to invalid conclusions.
Have you ever lived in an Arab country? Are you a female working in an Arab country? Do you really know what goes on in these countries? Do you know that if a woman gets raped the first one to blame is Herself... she has a high chance of getting arrested especially if she's not married. These countries have no intention to liberalise women's rights. What has happened in Doha is just a small part of how women are treated down there.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:48
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Keypilot, you are either a troll or a psychopath. Firstly Qatar is in breach of human rights on the women concerned. You donít see the problem with that which is bizarre.

You also argue that we must tolerate barbaric behaviour. I think not.

The one thing I agree is that people should be free to not use Qatar airlines. I will go further than that. Remove qatar airlines from Australia permanently. Warn Australians not to travel to qatar. Prevent Qataris from entering Australia. Prohibit all trade with Qatar and encourage others to do likewise.

Barbarism is barbarism. Doha is a shithole and no loss to anyone.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:59
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Originally Posted by Skyfl410 View Post
Have you ever lived in an Arab country? Are you a female working in an Arab country? Do you really know what goes on in these countries? Do you know that if a woman gets raped the first one to blame is Herself... she has a high chance of getting arrested especially if she's not married. These countries have no intention to liberalise women's rights. What has happened in Doha is just a small part of how women are treated down there.
Yes I have, and no I am not... Yes I have heard of some of these very disturbing cases, however I can see things improving.

Let me ask you a question, if I may: how do you account for the fact that very many "Western" women from liberal democracies (Aus/NZ, UK, Germany, USA, Canada, ...) have chosen of their own free will to move to Qatar and other similar countries, and then settle there for many years?
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:02
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So, because other countries' laws until relatively recently were similarly sexist and barbaric, that makes it OK?

Victim blaming used to be OK as well.

As has been said, those women were hardly there for a holiday, but were Australians who have been trying to come home for who knows how long. Maybe they had lost everything overseas, maybe they were coming back after dealing with family tragedies. Perhaps they had been living and working there or were passing through an international hub from other countries. If this airline was the only option to be able to come home after being bumped countless times at the cost of thousands of dollars then that doesn't justify what happened to them.

It wouldn't justify the same thing happening to men, either.

I can understand you want to get to the facts, I have posted a link where the victims have said what happened. One fact for sure, Australian women aren't going on frivolous holidays to Qatar
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:07
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Keypilot, you are either a troll or a psychopath. Firstly Qatar is in breach of human rights on the women concerned. You donít see the problem with that which is bizarre.

You also argue that we must tolerate barbaric behaviour. I think not.

The one thing I agree is that people should be free to not use Qatar airlines. I will go further than that. Remove qatar airlines from Australia permanently. Warn Australians not to travel to qatar. Prevent Qataris from entering Australia. Prohibit all trade with Qatar and encourage others to do likewise.

Barbarism is barbarism. Doha is a shithole and no loss to anyone.
I am neither a troll nor a pyschopath, nor have I argued that we must tolerate barbaric behaviour, nor indeed any particular behaviour. If you have the contrary view, please can you point me to the relevant post?

I have advocated a position based upon judicious consideration of the facts, and (almost uniquely amongst posters here) have considered that, it seems, a crime has been committed (with a very vulnerable victim), and have sought to consider the rights of law enforcement to investigate that crime. In the UK, by way of reference, abandoning a baby under the age of two is a criminal offence punishable by up to two years' imprisonment, which can be greater if aggravating factors are present (e.g. injury or neglect).

On the other hand, you have simply issued a tirade of ill-judged proposed "solutions" which will never come to pass, and even if they did would (amongst other things) serve only to direct passenger traffic to airlines of the UAE and China, which (per one of my earlier posts) have comparable human rights records to Qatar!
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:14
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
So, because other countries' laws until relatively recently were similarly sexist and barbaric, that makes it OK?

Victim blaming used to be OK as well.

As has been said, those women were hardly there for a holiday, but were Australians who have been trying to come home for who knows how long. Maybe they had lost everything overseas, maybe they were coming back after dealing with family tragedies. Perhaps they had been living and working there or were passing through an international hub from other countries. If this airline was the only option to be able to come home after being bumped countless times at the cost of thousands of dollars then that doesn't justify what happened to them.

It wouldn't justify the same thing happening to men, either.

I can understand you want to get to the facts, I have posted a link where the victims have said what happened. One fact for sure, Australian women aren't going on frivolous holidays to Qatar
Hi Clare, thanks for your rather more considered message than most on this thread recently!

To answer your question, no, something which is wrong is always wrong no matter how, or what else is or was wrong. But at the same time, taking a "holier than thou" stance on other countries' laws and cultures is rarely fully justified, and I advocate a more balanced view where one considers the historical positions of both the countries in question, and our own.

One thing I think most of us here would agree on, is that there is clearly some failing of Australian public policy, in that citizens have to rely on other countries' airlines to return home at the moment.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:19
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Keypilot, you are a psychopath. Go away. There is nothing “judicious” about anything Qatar has done and only an idiot, psychopath or troll would suggest otherwise.

I look forward to your justification for female genital mutilation, torture, beheading and medieval justice, all things you appear to apologise for.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:42
  #116 (permalink)  
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https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...f63c179c19b702


Things are heating up... thank goodness
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:44
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Keypilot, you are a psychopath. Go away. There is nothing ďjudiciousĒ about anything Qatar has done and only an idiot, psychopath or troll would suggest otherwise.

I look forward to your justification for female genital mutilation, torture, beheading and medieval justice, all things you appear to apologise for.
Sunfish I hope you are not a professional pilot because if you are, you are a disgrace to our profession.

I most certainly will not go away as I have the same right to be here as you, more in fact as (unlike you) I have been courteous and polite to others even when I disagree with them.

Also I have taken the trouble to read and understand that which others have written, you clearly have not in that you appear to imply that I have suggested that Qatar have behaved judiciously (I have not), or that I have been an apologist for clearly abhorrent practices (I have been very careful throughout to say that I neither condone - not criticise - any actions which it is suggested have taken place).

For these reasons, I shall not be responding to any of your further posts in this thread.

KP
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 13:47
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...f63c179c19b702


Things are heating up... thank goodness
So if the union refuses to refuel Qatar aircraft and in turn Qatar stop flying to Australia then the following will be the consequences:
1. Qatar Airways' losses will reduce
2. Australians seeking to return home to Australia will have fewer options
3. Airlines of the UAE (Emirates and Etihad) and China (Chine Southern, Air China, ...) will have more traffic - these countries have a very similar human rights record to Qatar

Great move!
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 14:06
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Agree

Originally Posted by Wunwing View Post
The facts appear to be correct. Qatar has every right to correct the story but so far don't appear to have even commented. Since the Qatar. Govt own both the airline and the airport then it is the Qatar Govts problem.

To a degree its also the Australian Govts problem. They have allowed Qantas who holds an RPT authority, to suspend international services, forcing desperate Australians to use any airline available.

The Australian Govt can respond by informing Qatar that they will not be renewing any bilateral aviation rights with Qatar.

Wunwing.

I agree It is the Qatari Gov PROBLEM and the Australian should request a full apology (When I said apology I mean MONEY) and a good start is Ban them from operating in Australia.
Could they not made a DNA test? less intrusive (physically) more intrusive because they have your DNA!

Last edited by Always Moving; 27th Oct 2020 at 14:40. Reason: I forgot something
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 14:34
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An official apology followed by substantial compensation to those affected, or lose the flights to Australia and the freedom to operate through Australian airspace.

They need us more than we need them.
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