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REX to transition to ATRs, start domestic jet ops

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REX to transition to ATRs, start domestic jet ops

Old 5th Jul 2023, 05:37
  #2281 (permalink)  
 
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When are we ever going to talk about basic pay, NOT meal allowance and extra pay for working days off or leave? Those pay scales are a joke.
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Old 5th Jul 2023, 06:20
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus
When are we ever going to talk about basic pay, NOT meal allowance and extra pay for working days off or leave? Those pay scales are a joke.
Bottom line is Rexís base pay is terrible.

However, the way Rexís crewing and rostering work, these things need to be taken into account.
Theoretically, if you only worked as your roster said, youíd probably earn between $15-30k above the base for 600-700 hours a year.

A savvy Captain, can turn that into 500 hours (yes, working less) a year and an additional $100k-150k pretty easily by knowing the way things work.
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Old 5th Jul 2023, 07:25
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When are we ever going to talk about basic pay, NOT meal allowance and extra pay for working days off or leave? Those pay scales are a joke.
Your pay package includes all of that, like I said compare the whole package, if you just compare base salaries you will probably be on less than somebody with a good total package. Airlines will con you by saying their base is better, then pay you measly allowances. Poor allowances and penalty payments mean you will get your ass worked as hard as possible, as it will be cheaper to work you to the bone than employ new pilots. Add FRMS without good penalties and OT allowances and you will be in a working hell... (Jet*)

If you looked at QF international salaries only without allowances you would be missing a huge chunk of their income. That was a big difference when VA started Crz FOs and such, you could be seeing similar Base salary and $100k difference in allowances in those environments.

Then you really need to know what actual workload the company will offer, as you have a lot of income based on workload, so if you are not working you could be on half pay working only to minimum guaranteed hours, which could be quite low if you don't read the fine print. Thats when you get conned with the *equivalent full time pay, meaning if you did work full hours you would get that, but you were employed on schedule B that only gets half that guaranteed.

Usually somebody telling you to only compare base salaries is management from one of the lower end companies...

Theoretically, if you only worked as your roster said, you’d probably earn between $15-30k above the base for 600-700 hours a year.
From What I hear absolute minimum would be additions of about $30K-$40K, half of which is tax free. You'd have to be not flying to earn much less than that. That assumes you claim everything entitled to you, something you need to do at Rex.

PS most loan agencies and the like are on to this now, they don't care about base salary figures, they want to know what your take home pay was, ie actual income. With pay slips as proof that you actually get that from your employer.

Last edited by 43Inches; 5th Jul 2023 at 07:41.
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Old 5th Jul 2023, 11:56
  #2284 (permalink)  
 
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43 Inches, the style of work program you are promoting is all that is wrong with aviation in Australia.

To earn decent money at Rex on the SAAB, you must sacrifice any hope of a decent lifestyle and your self respect.

The salary package combined with the system of claims, (purely designed to get out of paying what you are owed), is a disgrace, reflected by their lack of ability to retain pilots, or attract new ones.

Absolute bottom dwellers.
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Old 5th Jul 2023, 12:49
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43 Inches, the style of work program you are promoting is all that is wrong with aviation in Australia.

To earn decent money at Rex on the SAAB, you must sacrifice any hope of a decent lifestyle and your self respect.

The salary package combined with the system of claims, (purely designed to get out of paying what you are owed), is a disgrace, reflected by their lack of ability to retain pilots, or attract new ones.

Absolute bottom dwellers.
I will repeat for the hard of hearing, I'm not promoting or saying the Rex deal is good, and have said numerous times they need to do better, especially in the lifestyle part. Laying out what they earn is just being truthful, I suggest you put down what your airline experience pays you and what you get as real pay, not what the EBA says. but what you end up with in reality, then we can see where pilots should be aiming for. I'm still yet to see anyone post that, just random base salaries that mean nothing. As I said earlier I'm all for a Union that lays bare what each airline actually offers, base+allowances+leave+super for what workload. There are some sites that try, but they are very fudgy with Australian airlines. Or are there a number of pilots out there embarrassed at what they accepted to fly the shiny jet they always dreamed of? I know Jet* flogs you for the money you get, VA does as well, it is better than the SAAB for sure, but what are the pros and cons of earning that extra $100k?

A savvy Captain, can turn that into 500 hours (yes, working less) a year and an additional $100k-150k pretty easily by knowing the way things work.
And there is that, if you really know your EBA at places like Rex you can earn more for less work.... Work smarter, not harder as they say. From experience once you get into larger airlines it can be harder to twist the crewing officers to what you want, so you may get paid more but you are more likely to fly the roster they give you without alteration. But the bidding processes are better, especially once you get seniority, so the roster is more what you wanted anyway.

Last edited by 43Inches; 5th Jul 2023 at 12:59.
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Old 5th Jul 2023, 14:41
  #2286 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
I suggest you put down what your airline experience pays you and what you get as real pay, not what the EBA says.
286,680 all in

237,333 gross taxable

Difference in allowances and super

Thatís for just over 800 stick hrs and I only took 4 weeks leave thought the year

Thatís roughly 67 stick hrs per 4 week bid period flown

Iím sitting in the RHS domestic (and not flying an A320 anymoreÖ.. same size though)
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 01:35
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Originally Posted by A320 Flyer
286,680 all in

237,333 gross taxable

Difference in allowances and super

That’s for just over 800 stick hrs and I only took 4 weeks leave thought the year

That’s roughly 67 stick hrs per 4 week bid period flown

I’m sitting in the RHS domestic (and not flying an A320 anymore….. same size though)
I'd call that a reasonable reward for the work done, and sounds more like mainline QF than VA current arrangements. It's the sort of amount I'd want to see as a minimum for 737/A320 FOs. How does that compare to what one would earn at say NJS or Alliance, and dare I say some takers from Easterns or Sunstate?
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 05:04
  #2288 (permalink)  
 
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That’s $272/hr including vacation pay. (871 hrs total credit). I believe you are at the top of Australian narrow body right seat pay and still grossly underpaid at that.

Anyone who advocates counting meal allowances etc does not understand that they are about expense reimbursement, not additional pay.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 05:18
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Anyone who advocates counting meal allowances etc does not understand that they are about expense reimbursement, not additional pay.
Not sure what you are arguing there, all allowances are some form of reimbursement. If it's part of an EBA, it's an entitlement in your pay packet, it's all pay! Some EBA those items are built into your base salary, so it's important to note what EBAs have and which do not. And OT meal claims are not reimbursements they are generally an inconvenience fee for missing a break allowance. So if your company only assigns minimum break periods and you run 1 minute late into that break, you get the meal allowance, it's poorly named I know.

You probably won't have much of a medical if you went through $120-$200 a shift in meals.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 05:20
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
Not sure what you are arguing there, all allowances are some form of reimbursement. If it's part of an EBA, it's an entitlement in your pay packet, it's all pay! Some EBA those items are built into your base salary, so it's important to note what EBAs have and which do not. And OT meal claims are not reimbursements they are generally an inconvenience fee for missing a break allowance. So if your company only assigns minimum break periods and you run 1 minute late into that break, you get the meal allowance, it's poorly named I know.

You probably won't have much of a medical if you went through $120-$200 a shift in meals.
I'd be so interested to know who you are at rex. We must speak to different people at the company.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 05:26
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Originally Posted by Ladloy
I'd be so interested to know who you are at rex. We must speak to different people at the company.
Not at Rex anymore, but know a lot that are still there. Also have worked at QLink, if that helps, and now somewhere else, bigger.

If you don't get it, QLink has an EBA coming up, they might need a bit of a shove up to get the balls to bring their pay and conditions up to standard. Playing down what the competition is earning won't help. I feel they need a step up of at least 20% to be where they should be starting from.

Last edited by 43Inches; 6th Jul 2023 at 05:38.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 06:53
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus
That’s $272/hr including vacation pay. (871 hrs total credit). I believe you are at the top of Australian narrow body right seat pay and still grossly underpaid at that.
That figure puts the Captain on $360k for the year assuming the FO is 66% the hourly rate of the skipper.

So what should a domestic narrow body Captain and FO be paid for doing 800 hours a year?

Last edited by Colonel_Klink; 6th Jul 2023 at 06:53. Reason: Grammar
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 08:06
  #2293 (permalink)  
 
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I believe the legacy carrier benchmark in the US is currently at US$ 450,000+ extras. (~AUD675K) Australia is a higher cost country. The US airline pilot unions are militant and their members enjoy the benefits of that. Contrast that to the local dynamics and you get the local crap pay.

As to what is fair: Whatever the market will bear given the industrial laws and the backbone of the union membership.

I get something close to $360/hr. That’s after at least three years of pay freezes in my career and increases below inflation. Absent those things my rate of pay would be over $400/hr.

I think $450k is a reasonable number. But I wonder why I should accept less than our colleagues overseas when our fares are at least as high and the CEO is the highest paid airline exec in the world? For running down an airline that was ranked 18in the world by fleet size to 38th in ten years.

As far as the LCCs go…who else takes lower pay for the same work to offset the employer's revenue model? The difference between my pay and a JQ captain's pay is what? 50c per seat per hour?

And by the way…I think a Dash 8 skipper should get at least $200K based on seats and speed.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 08:23
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The US pilots deserve as much as they can get, especially at the lower echelons. $450K does sound very high though, although I would not complain and if they can get more why not.

And yes, Dash and SAAB skippers should be closer to $200k as a minimum, not after all considered and working your ass off. The proof is in the pudding though, no one wants to fly for those companies, at least not for long and only as a stepping stone.

If you took CPI increases as a minimum then SAAB Captains should be on closer to $160k base and Dash Captains at least $180k. However that does not account for the lifestyle changes to these operations over the years, with more layovers and FRMS implementation. So the figure of around $200K is probably where they should be. Can't afford it? Well whats less affordable, paying pilots more so that you have flights, or not having any pilots and a lot of grounded aircraft.

The regionals have to make a big decision if they want to stay in business. Look at base salaries north of $200k for Captains AND 10-12 days off to attract/retain senior staff, or, shut the doors and go manage a fish & chip shop.
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 08:48
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Is it true that overtime is based on the load factor for rexjet crew?
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Old 6th Jul 2023, 12:16
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Basic economics, money talks or people walk. Basic Economics.
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Old 7th Jul 2023, 09:03
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
The US pilots deserve as much as they can get, especially at the lower echelons. $450K does sound very high though, although I would not complain and if they can get more why not.

And yes, Dash and SAAB skippers should be closer to $200k as a minimum, not after all considered and working your ass off. The proof is in the pudding though, no one wants to fly for those companies, at least not for long and only as a stepping stone.

If you took CPI increases as a minimum then SAAB Captains should be on closer to $160k base and Dash Captains at least $180k. However that does not account for the lifestyle changes to these operations over the years, with more layovers and FRMS implementation. So the figure of around $200K is probably where they should be. Can't afford it? Well whats less affordable, paying pilots more so that you have flights, or not having any pilots and a lot of grounded aircraft.

The regionals have to make a big decision if they want to stay in business. Look at base salaries north of $200k for Captains AND 10-12 days off to attract/retain senior staff, or, shut the doors and go manage a fish & chip shop.

Here's some more data points for you: In 1980 I flew a 55 pax aeroplane at 280 kts and was paid $60K. (~1000 hrs)That was around three times an average 1980 salary. That equates to $221,000 now. That aircraft could generate 28,600 revenue passenger kilometres an hour. A Dash 8-400 can generate 48,000 rpk/hour.

My next door neighbour is a small time builder doing renos and small extensions. He uses 2 or 3 contractors and makes $250K himself. Home by 4 every day, every weekend off. You get the idea. But sadly, its not a sexy job.
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Old 8th Jul 2023, 02:19
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Yes, makes sense. When I was talking Dash-8 I meant the 100-300, which yes would put the -400 another $20k up again, so $220,000 for a Q400 Captain is reasonable. The issue with QLink dash operation was always the rift between Easterns and Sunstate, and no more evident than at EBA time. If DiVosh was still with us he could attest to that as he was directly involved in the negotiations there. We had more than one conversation about how they were pushing '****e' uphill at negotiations, that's around when DHA was introduced as QLink was playing silly buggers by providing meals rather than letting pilots claim for them. Things like using the Q400 fleet locations to swing one pilot body against the other.
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Old 8th Jul 2023, 03:16
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
Yes, makes sense. When I was talking Dash-8 I meant the 100-300, which yes would put the -400 another $20k up again, so $220,000 for a Q400 Captain is reasonable. The issue with QLink dash operation was always the rift between Easterns and Sunstate, and no more evident than at EBA time. If DiVosh was still with us he could attest to that as he was directly involved in the negotiations there. We had more than one conversation about how they were pushing '****e' uphill at negotiations, that's around when DHA was introduced as QLink was playing silly buggers by providing meals rather than letting pilots claim for them. Things like using the Q400 fleet locations to swing one pilot body against the other.
Under the new multi employer bargaining rules would Easterns and Sunstate be able to bargin as one??
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Old 8th Jul 2023, 03:34
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Originally Posted by davidclarke
Under the new multi employer bargaining rules would Easterns and Sunstate be able to bargin as one??
There's nothing at all stopping them working together before or now, except the division between the pilots themselves. The issue is that due to basing differences there are different needs/wants between the two. Sunnies being more related to QLD basing wants and needs, and Easterns more in the south, VIC/SA and a sort of sharing of NSW. This is where it comes back to EBAs being way more complicated than just a base salary.
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