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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 16th Jul 2020, 10:59
  #861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by crosscutter View Post
I’m sure you are familiar with the Qantas Airways Ltd v Christie case. Similarities can be drawn.
The Christie case was to do with the use of seniority based preferential bidding to remain on the 747 no where is there a mention of his ability to go to SH where all present long haul pilots have a number on the SH seniority list. We also have the dilemma of say a 747 Captain who RINs to the 330 but is on a carers line. He or she doesn’t do blank lines or standbys and can bid for purely domestic or Tasman flying. So does that Captain stay over 65 but another one who isn’t on a careers line has to go?







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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:09
  #862 (permalink)  
 
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I am disgusted by how the company is acting in regards to CR/VR/LWOP.
i understand it is a business decision but maybe the wrong decision has been made.
Some of us, if still employed, will not forget.
they are following the agreement as interpreted, both parties can play that game.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:15
  #863 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Come in spinner View Post
I am disgusted by how the company is acting in regards to CR/VR/LWOP.
i understand it is a business decision but maybe the wrong decision has been made.
Some of us, if still employed, will not forget.
they are following the agreement as interpreted, both parties can play that game.

Well said , there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:28
  #864 (permalink)  
 
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Make sure to express your concerns to the CoM. These threats are a disgrace and need to be noted.

We just finished the 1st quarter...Iíd say Aug 7th will be half time.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:43
  #865 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
If as above you are correct then what happens if you take two years LWOP and they need pilots after one year who comes back first the pilot on CR or can the pilot on LWOP returning earlier than the LWOP that he took Instead of the more senior pilot who was compulsory made redundant? The bottom line is a Pandora’s box has been opened and like a royal commission do you want to go to FWA without knowing what the result will be.
Not really.

The LWOP pilot will be asked to come back early (they are employed by the company). They can refuse.

The CR pilot remains unemployed until Qantas do external recruitment. At that point they return to Qantas and return to the same seniority # (above the LWOP pilot).
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:50
  #866 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Not true, pilots are called back in seniority order - whether from LWOP
or the retrenched list.
Nope. Shot down in a webinar by HR.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:54
  #867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Nope. Shot down in a webinar by HR.
If thatís what HR says itís probably a porky pie
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 11:58
  #868 (permalink)  
 
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What don't you understand dragon man?

If you are on LWOP you are employed by the company. If you receive CR you are not. You have nothing to do with the company whatsoever. You keep your name on a list and that's it - hopefully one day you will get the call.

The question you are getting at was specifically asked in a webinar and the answer was as I mentioned above.

If you refused to come back from LWOP early and they were short of crew, then they will recruit externally (i.e. call back the CR pilot).

It's not rocket science mate. Jesus!
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 12:12
  #869 (permalink)  
 
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The least of Qantas’s problems right now Or in the future few years is a pilots shortage.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 12:18
  #870 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
If thatís what HR says itís probably a porky pie
Why? Theyíre the ones who are running the company in conjunction with Flt Ops. Everything they are planning is authorised by the lawyers.

Like beautiful_butterflyís post above, you can go on all day about what you think should be happening. Itís actually pretty clear what is going to happen. Management have said it pretty openly numerous times.

If you are on LWOP you are employed by the company. If you receive CR you are not. You have nothing to do with the company whatsoever. You keep your name on a list and that's it - hopefully one day you will get the call.
I alluded to this several weeks ago but thatís the most important principle. You want to remain within the system. Not outside of it.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 20:57
  #871 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
In your opinion, however I can tell you that they are not forcing long haul pilots who reach 65 at the moment to retire and thatís because in my opinion they canít and they know it.
so when you hit 65, you canít fly internationally. There is no role domestically. So you donít have a job. Your position is not redundant, you just canít fulfill it.

opinion or not, itís QFís position. They have done their homework. As Dre said, itís what will happen. Just like SH being excluded if there are CRís. It doesnít mean I agree with it.

its sad for all the guys 62+ who did their last flights and didnít know it. But this is how QF are running it. Until we see a successful challenge to something, thatís the only assumption we can make. And Iím yet to see a successful challenge.


Edit

forget all the above, we are all saved. Apparently all we have to do is wear LJ activewear


Last edited by cloudsurfng; 16th Jul 2020 at 21:30.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 21:03
  #872 (permalink)  
 
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b) The Company may make pilots compulsorily redundant, which WILL occur in reverse order of seniority – that is, on a last on first off basis except that the Company MAY ‘pass over’ a pilot who is on LWOP and that period of leave commenced prior to the issuing of the notice of compulsory redundancy and was approved for a period of more than 12 months.

Got it. So the company is going to to use this clause to passover a less expensive junior CR candidate, in order to pay out a larger sum of money in these financially constrained times to a more expensive senior pilot. Makes sense.

If any of you believe any of the rubbish being spruiked by HR/Tino then read yesterday's article in the SMH -

"The plan means Qantas is much less likely to emerge from the coronavirus pandemic with the risk of its long haul international pilots taking holidays just as the company's planes get back in the air."

So now the accrual of Annual Leave and Long Service Leave isn't actually about the bottom line, it's about the pesky pilots deciding that after X Months/Years of not flying they are going to take Leave as soon as they are stood up again and threaten the future of the airline.

You couldn't make this sh1t up. No, wait, not true. I've read enough of the comments on this forum to understand how easy it is to lead sheep to slaughter.

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Old 16th Jul 2020, 22:24
  #873 (permalink)  
 
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Itís interesting to note comments from the CFO stating that no one knows what demand will look like into the future!
So what is the three year plan based on?
What if demand really picks up?
Oxford and Moderna have both had successful phase one results.
Efficacy trials should be known by September with Oxford manufacturing starting now for delivery in October.
It reminds of the end scene in Zombieland 2 where Woody leads all the zombies to jump off the roof.
You canít stop human nature?
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 22:45
  #874 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wingspar View Post
Itís interesting to note comments from the CFO stating that no one knows what demand will look like into the future!
So what is the three year plan based on?
What if demand really picks up?
Then pilots are recalled from stand-down as required, pilots are asked to return from LWOP early and if that isnít sufficient then external recruitment is carried out.

I think we can all agree if that course of action is needed then that itís a problem everyone will be glad to have.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 22:53
  #875 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by common cents View Post
So a more senior pilot on SU and a more junior pilot on LWOP are both still employed by the company. The industrial agreements in place give the company the option to by pass the LWOP pilot in case of CR.
Both still considered employees of the company but the company has the option to discriminate.
I’d love to be the judge presiding over that one!
Mate I’m sure most don’t agree with it, I certainly don’t. But you said it yourself, “The industrial agreements in place”. What’s a judge going to be presiding over exactly? That we don’t like something written in an agreement we just voted on!

Last edited by OBNO; 16th Jul 2020 at 23:24.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 22:55
  #876 (permalink)  
 
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So let me get this straight , taking this concept of the “Immaculate Passover “ for LWOP pilots to the nth degree , you could quite possibly end up with a situation of a vast number of junior pilots being convinced and herded into taking LWOP by Management and their FUD campaign of being CR’d if they aren’t protected by Managements application of “MAY” as in LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
Let us say, for arguments sake , that a senior pilot with decades of seniority , or a middle ranking pilot for that matter, due to past practice and principle application of Seniority would in a normal world have a fair idea of where they stood in the scheme of things , as has been shown by the Company’s application in other past decisions regarding application of the concept of seniority .
Now these middle ranking pilots and above suddenly find themselves subject to being CR’d due to an arbitrary managerial interpretation of the contract which “convinced” a vast number of more Junior pilots into taking LWOP due to the supposed protections afforded if they capitulate ..and these middle ranking and above pilots so affected aren’t anywhere even close to the bottom of the seniority pyramid scheme !
Is this truely how the application of Compulsory Redundancy was envisaged?
One would think that the intrinsic concept of “last on first off “ as pretty straight forward !
Obviously not when viewed through the cynical prism of Qantas interpretation !
Talk about unintended consequences !
Come on , get real , how long would this cynical Company interpretation last under legal scrutiny?
What other long upheld tenants are Management going to “re-interpret” cynically in these “unprecedented “ times one wonders !

Last edited by blow.n.gasket; 17th Jul 2020 at 00:30.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 00:10
  #877 (permalink)  
 
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https://wolfstreet.com/2020/07/14/de...ins-uncertain/
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 00:22
  #878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
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Originally Posted by blow.n.gasket View Post
So let me get this straight , taking this concept of the ďImmaculate Passover ď for LWOP pilots to the nth degree , you could quite possibly end up with a situation of a vast number of junior pilots being convinced and herded into taking LWOP by Management and their FUD campaign of being CRíd if they arenít protected by Managements application of ďMAYĒ as in LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
Let us say, for arguments sake , that a senior pilot with decades of seniority , or a middle ranking pilot for that matter, due to past practice and principle application of Seniority would in a normal world have a fair idea of where they stood in the scheme of things , as has been shown by the Companyís application in other past decisions regarding application of the concept of seniority .
Now these middle ranking pilots and above suddenly find themselves subject to being CRíd due to an arbitrary managerial interpretation of the contract which ďconvincedĒ a vast number of more Junior pilots into taking LWOP due to the supposed protections afforded if they capitulate ..and these middle ranking and above pilots so affected arenít anywhere even close to the bottom of the seniority pyramid scheme !
Is this truely how the application of Compulsory Redundancy was envisaged?
One would think that the intrinsic concept of ďlast on first off ď as pretty straight forward !
Obviously not when viewed through the cynical prism of Qantas interpretation !
Talk about unintended consequences !
Come on , get real , how long would this cynical Company interpretation last under legal scrutiny?
What other aspects of the Contract are Management going to ďinterpretĒ cynically in these ďunprecedented ď times one wonders !
couldnt have said it better myself
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 00:41
  #879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Inexcusable to use the threat of CR to get people off the books!
Fear of losing ones job. Modus operandi.
Isnt it bad enough to stand people down without pay?
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 01:10
  #880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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This is a little like a prisoners dilemma....however, the pilots have the advantage of talking to one another. If everyone agreed to not take LWOP (unless those that freely desired it) then the outcome is optimised.

Seniority is respected. The fewest number leave the company (as it costs them)

Protection of self interest is a killer...but understandable.
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