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Air NZ pilot redundancies

Old 9th Apr 2020, 10:15
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas group (Jetstar) operates domestic NZ with this codeshare agreement in place. I donít see how this would be different
The difference is that the codeshare agreement was negotiated with this already in place. The agreement does not codeshare on JQ.

If AirNZ decided to expand into Domestic AU and undermine the whole codeshare agreement then it would be ripped up overnight.

I donít think you understand what the codeshare agreement is or how it works.

An ANZ customer can book a flight from Napier to Perth. They ďchooseĒ to travel Napier to Auckland on Air NZ. There is no codeshare on the Tasman so they travel on Air NZ to East Coast AU. If they have the right privileges they can access QF lounges in AU and then ďChooseĒ to codeshare on QF to Perth.

Under this existing arrangement would QF be happy for Air NZ to enter the AU domestic market and operate these services. Why would they when QF will do it it for them?

Air NZ could decided to invest a huge amount of capex to do this but in this current environment it wonít happen. In addition now that they are ďfrenemiesĒ with QF why would they take on an airline they are working closely with.

It makes no sense.
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Old 9th Apr 2020, 10:54
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Youíre a braver man than I to use such definitive statements. Iím not saying Air NZ will fly domestically in Aus, just that if there was a viable business case, they could.

No one knows what the post COVID 19 economy will look like, never mind the aviation sector. Air NZ might decide that utilising $80 million assets that theyíre paying leasing fees on anyway, and getting a foothold in the Aussie market stacks up, even if they have to forfeit a codeshare agreement.

Anything is possible
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Old 9th Apr 2020, 21:41
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sid-star View Post
Air NZ will survive with the Govt pumping nearly $ 1 b into their coffers. The pilots unions need to be realistic and play their part in the future size and shape of the new airline . Is it realistic to expect an airline haemorrhaging money to retrain a huge number of pilots on different types and then pay them WB salaries to fly a domestic A320.
Would it be cheaper to close the airline, make all pilots redundant and then start again, rehiring those that are needed rather than retraining hundreds of pilots to different positions?
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Old 9th Apr 2020, 22:42
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by markontop View Post
Yes they should have had nothing to do with Australian domestic twenty years ago.
100% correct & now the future is looking eerily so alike.
Big egos & not answerable to anyone.
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Old 9th Apr 2020, 23:18
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pisstin broke View Post
Would it be cheaper to close the airline, make all pilots redundant and then start again, rehiring those that are needed rather than retraining hundreds of pilots to different positions?
Politically unacceptable with the Government owning 52% of the airline.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 08:57
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
19.7.3(C)

Basically, you need a CPL with Current IR.
Youíd have to do a TD/PD anyway when you came back, maybe even a type rating, so it seems a pointless requirement to keep your IR current. I donít actually think the company would care.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 09:15
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sid-star View Post
Air NZ will survive with the Govt pumping nearly $ 1 b into their coffers. The pilots unions need to be realistic and play their part in the future size and shape of the new airline . Is it realistic to expect an airline haemorrhaging money to retrain a huge number of pilots on different types and then pay them WB salaries to fly a domestic A320.
ALPA has said all along there will be redundancies but the goal is to minimise the number.
Nobody will be paid WB salary to fly a 320. A fleet change means a salary change.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 11:39
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pisstin broke View Post
Would it be cheaper to close the airline, make all pilots redundant and then start again, rehiring those that are needed rather than retraining hundreds of pilots to different positions?
The CEA of the majority of the AirNZ Jet pilots (900 of the 1096 current jet pilots) has a 10yr redundancy re-hire policy in seniority order. So you can't make them all redundant and start again, cherry picking the qualified and current people for the fleets you plan to operate because people need to be rehired in the order they were let go.

Also making someone redundant, and then hiring someone else for the same position in less than 18mths is illegal in NZ if I recall correctly.

You'd have to wind up "AirNZ" and start "Teal2020" or the like and start a fresh with everything and everyone..... something that even Simon Bridges would recognise and give the side eye to.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 13:09
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Sad to see this happening to such a great airline to fly with. Hopefully we all get through this period and the economy bounces back as soon as. Maybe it is better to take the redundancy payout and then come back hopefully at a later date than LWOP.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 18:23
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Quick question. Under my EBA we can’t be displaced from our Fleet, base or rank by any person who has lost their position as the result of a fleet decommissioning. Regardless of that persons position on the GDOJ list. Is there no similar provision within the AirNZ agreement?
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 18:57
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MonsterC01 View Post
Quick question. Under my EBA we canít be displaced from our Fleet, base or rank by any person who has lost their position as the result of a fleet decommissioning. Regardless of that persons position on the GDOJ list. Is there no similar provision within the AirNZ agreement?
Nope, last on the list, first off. It's going to be expensive to get everyone into their new seat.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 20:50
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hudson Hawk View Post
Also making someone redundant, and then hiring someone else for the same position in less than 18mths is illegal in NZ if I recall correctly.
That is correct
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 22:58
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Was it Last in, First Out? Thatís what one article claims.

Not much in regards to fleet position post Covid, however the -200ER will probably be shelved. Thats 1/3 of widebody capacity.

Sadly thats a lot of Pilots out of work across VA and NZ. Yet to hear about the other two yet.

They also were looking at paths for those to return in the future, but I donít think we will be at 2019 fleet/pilot numbers until the next decade. Then there will be an issue of so many people walking away from the industry right now, either retiring or switching industries due oversupply, that there will be a lack of bods long term.
That leaves a pretty small window, we only have one more cycle of aircraft design before we go single pilot and full automation throughout the narrow body/wide body industry. Thatís 25 years tops before we only need half the pilot numbers we currently have.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 23:06
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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You are assuming that there is going to be the money and the market for a new aircraft design. Then you are assuming that the manufacturers are going to launch a whole new design that will be single pilot. Boeing and Airbus are going to be licking their wounds for a while before embarking on a project that will have the potential to see them go bankrupt if they get it wrong. You only get one chance to recover from an A380 or 737 Max.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 23:25
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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That leaves a pretty small window, we only have one more cycle of aircraft design before we go single pilot and full automation throughout the narrow body/wide body industry. Thatís 25 years tops before we only need half the pilot numbers we currently have.
25 years you say? That technology has been avaliable for decades, it's the appetite for it that has and will lack.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 02:46
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
Nope, last on the list, first off. It's going to be expensive to get everyone into their new seat.
Is there a clause that mentions exceptional circumstances or unforeseen event? We have one in ours and in laymanís terms it means.
Company will do as it pleases as we are in a fight for our survival and to hell with your GDOJ LIST. The cost of retraining everyone and downgrading is prohibitive. We will make redundancies as we see fit within the fleets to manage cost.
I canít see them doing it from the bottom up personally.
Itís going to be a mammoth task for the unions involved but I canít see what leverage they have over the company when itís receiving a bailout to the tune of $1B and owned 52% by the government. They will want results. That may mean some seniors pilots end up on the chopping block.
I would be looking at it as no one is safe.
Myself personally am stood down, not expecting a bright future so am dusting off the steel cap boots and getting my hands dirty. Nothing else for it.
I wish you all luck. Have a lot of friends at AirNz and itís an absolute shambles what is happening worldwide to our industry.
Take care of one another and hopefully in a couple years time we all hear each other in the air again!
Best Wishes
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 03:33
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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They've already stated publicly they won't be using "exceptional circumstances" clauses.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 04:46
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Company will do as it pleases as we are in a fight for our survival and to hell with your GDOJ LIST. The cost of retraining everyone and downgrading is prohibitive. We will make redundancies as we see fit within the fleets to manage cost.
.
Wouldn't LIFO dis-proportionally affect the most needed pilots? For example I'd assume the 320's pilots are junior to the 777s, but the 320 may be in more demand. Wouldn't both the cost and complexity of retraining the most senior pilots onto the needed fleets due to making the most junior pilots redundant be prohibitive?
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 05:05
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn't LIFO dis-proportionally affect the most needed pilots? For example I'd assume the 320's pilots are junior to the 777s, but the 320 may be in more demand. Wouldn't both the cost and complexity of retraining the most senior pilots onto the needed fleets due to making the most junior pilots redundant be prohibitive?
Correct, but thats how the agreement is written.

I wouldnt be susprised if in the shorter term the widebody fleet picked up some of the shorthaul work with a drastically reduced frequency vs that offered with the narrow body fleet operating. One AKL/SYD or two AKL/CHC a day anyone? Strange times ahead.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 08:46
  #80 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
Correct, but thats how the agreement is written.

I wouldnt be susprised if in the shorter term the widebody fleet picked up some of the shorthaul work with a drastically reduced frequency vs that offered with the narrow body fleet operating. One AKL/SYD or two AKL/CHC a day anyone? Strange times ahead.
The 777 and 787 are already used on trans Tasman, and QF use the A330. Everything will depend on volumes. If Jetstar and VA drop off trans Tasman then the legacy carriers can pick up their seats and it would make sense to use existing assets rather than having the aircraft sat on the ground, especially if the LH market is slower to pick up
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