GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'
Tdracer:
I’m afraid I can’t agree to classify this event as just a”trim issue” that’s like calling the collision between the Titanic and an iceberg an ice issue.
The MCAS failure included multiple alarms unrelated to trim position and the behavior of the trim system was not identifiable as a known failure mode.
To put that another way, how would you react if someone fitted a Tesla like automatic steering system to your old F100 without telling you? How can you identify a system failure if you have no knowledge of the existence of the system itself? That is the logical iceberg that Boeing founders on.
It must be terrible living through all this in the Seattle area.
1) Pilot reaction time to a trim issue was assumed to be 4 seconds - Boeing has now acknowledged that was too optimistic and 15 seconds is being used going forward.
The MCAS failure included multiple alarms unrelated to trim position and the behavior of the trim system was not identifiable as a known failure mode.
To put that another way, how would you react if someone fitted a Tesla like automatic steering system to your old F100 without telling you? How can you identify a system failure if you have no knowledge of the existence of the system itself? That is the logical iceberg that Boeing founders on.
It must be terrible living through all this in the Seattle area.
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Show me the video because I am not able to find that one you describe.
On a side note -
look how easy it is to save the plane with this simulation. Ignore the Oscar worthy acting of the instructor during the "simulated crash scenario".
https://youtu.be/l-tmcQebeN8
Obviously the faster the plane is going, the more difficult it is to manually trim the plane using the wheel. However, had the Ethiopian pilots not left power to TOGA and were doing 300kts+, the wheel would have been easier to move!
On a side note -
look how easy it is to save the plane with this simulation. Ignore the Oscar worthy acting of the instructor during the "simulated crash scenario".
https://youtu.be/l-tmcQebeN8
Obviously the faster the plane is going, the more difficult it is to manually trim the plane using the wheel. However, had the Ethiopian pilots not left power to TOGA and were doing 300kts+, the wheel would have been easier to move!
Quite so. At lower air speeds the elevator can cope with the trim being well out AND. If any trainer reading has access to a sim. Please run trim to zero and see if elevator can cope and at what max airspeed. I can do it tomorrow but I’d have to rent a sim for 1000 pounds ! I am retired on pension!
This video is a farce when he shows “correct way”. He turns off the STAB switches before using MANUAL TRIM to retrim back into safe green range.
He should use the easy fast electric trim first line of defence and hold those thumb switches until he’s no longer pulling. Ie plane in trim. Then SWITCHES OFF
Trim manually
The other thing is that they seem to be easily able to trim manually when way out of trim in a dive. As we know that’s not possible and was never meant to be possible so I’m guessing the sim doesn’t represent the true forces.
R Guy. With insomnia
Last edited by retired guy; 26th Jan 2020 at 06:21.
It frustrates me that Boeing are taking far too much blame for this and not the airline's training department!
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As has been discussed at length on PPRuNe, the "robust training standards" are only as good as what was provided by Boeing, which we know was insufficient. Indeed, the notorious Lionair requested additional MAX 8 training from Boeing and were turned away.
The original threads for each crash are still available in the PPRuNe archives, go and read for yourself how quickly race was implicated as a cause for each incident.
An ironic way to end your rant.
Some are way above the minimum requirements to obtain an AOC. Most are somewhere well above the red line. 200 or so are not . Unless one believes the EU. is prejudiced along racial lines.
just trying to get a balance on this racial card.
best wishes
R Guy
Last edited by retired guy; 26th Jan 2020 at 06:23.
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Food for thought.
R Guy
Oh I see, the crashes were caused by letting ignorant black savages fly modern technology airliners. Everyone knows blacks are inferior technologically. (sarcasm mode off). That is Boeing’s message as relayed by Thomas.
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I'd tend to agree with tdracer regarding Boeing's involvement in production of GT's trash ...
More likely, the clown is just trying, yet again, to big-note and sound like The Man, after having spent hours studying blogs and fora, absorbing opinions, including those of the biased and clueless (like many of the sim kids that often rant on here).
He probably believes he'll get preferential treatment from Boeing if he publishes the most glowing pieces, polishing as he goes.
I've never met the clown, but know others who have ... and not one has liked him, let alone agreed with him (his boss had zero respect for him, as did most if not all of his colleagues!).
More likely, the clown is just trying, yet again, to big-note and sound like The Man, after having spent hours studying blogs and fora, absorbing opinions, including those of the biased and clueless (like many of the sim kids that often rant on here).
He probably believes he'll get preferential treatment from Boeing if he publishes the most glowing pieces, polishing as he goes.
I've never met the clown, but know others who have ... and not one has liked him, let alone agreed with him (his boss had zero respect for him, as did most if not all of his colleagues!).
When a Boeing test pilot takes 4 attempts to recover from this in a sim knowing it was coming, what chance did any line pilot have ?
”The pilot, Mark Forkner, told another Boeing employee in 2016 that the flight system, called MCAS, was “egregious” and “running rampant” while he tested it in a flight simulator.“So I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly),” wrote Forkner, then Boeing’s chief technical pilot for the 737.”
https://apnews.com/822e02570983487f8cac3b43fd9defcb
”The pilot, Mark Forkner, told another Boeing employee in 2016 that the flight system, called MCAS, was “egregious” and “running rampant” while he tested it in a flight simulator.“So I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly),” wrote Forkner, then Boeing’s chief technical pilot for the 737.”
https://apnews.com/822e02570983487f8cac3b43fd9defcb
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Not hating the guy, just hating the unfounded commonly incorrect rubbish that flows from him on a regular basis. Couldn't imagine waking to that trash on my local network or daily news read all the time. It's a sad situation when his so called reporting / journalism (use that term very loosely) pervades media sources and outlets here on the other side of the pond.
I’ll see some more of his utterances and see how it goes. Maybe he likes adverse publicity like some airlines.
R Guy
Curious if true. From the early 00's, Alteon was the training provider to ET. Alteon was a subsidiary of Boeing and was later renamed Boeing Training.
If Boeing remains the training provider to ET, then any argument on poor training is kind of circular.
If Boeing remains the training provider to ET, then any argument on poor training is kind of circular.
Last edited by fdr; 26th Jan 2020 at 05:56.
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make sure that airlines operate to high standards- not white standards.
R Guy
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with Ethiopia Academy? Google it. Let’s find out!
I’m not a fan of setting up your own academy with 95% pass rate - bit too close to marking your own homework! Then you go to your airline which wants/needs you to pass- certainly pressure to pass.
That said I went to Hamble which was same idea for BOAC/BEA. Difference was heavy selection process with three days of elements which weeded out 3/4 or more of applicants. very high failure rate on 18 month course with few holidays. 250 hours flying in bad weather mostly. 50 hours aerobatics on chipmunks. 50 hours on twins (Aztec) much of it solo. Then further attrition at the airline with failures on the type rating and especially at base training which went on for several days due to no good sims. Runaway Stab on 707 was done at 5000 ft in circuit for real and the TC would run it AND for a l o n g time to get it really tough before saying “recover”
And this was in the dark ages when Pontius was still a pilate (pun).
This has changed utterly, the justification being that automation fills the gap. Recent FBW crashes and the Max crashes may point in a different direction, and it’s not one the industry wants to tackle. At all.
R Guy
in case anyone thinks I have a firework up the jacksy and have the opposite of writers cramp, I’m in hospital and on pain killers and half out of it, and bored to tears. But even so, I can still make sense of your postings folks and may our conversations long continue. The only ones I don’t really like are the personal ones.
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Gee sunfish , didn’t know you were so “woke”. I haven’t met a single B737 pilot , and I know plenty, that doesn’t think both accidents were anything other than a clusterf#@K, MCAS or no MCAS. If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger. Personally , I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with color , just lots of experience operating there.
I agree with you.
The pilots are dead and therefore cannot defend themselves.
Boeing person tells GT about one of the dead persons training file. Of course defending their product and blaming those that flew it. GT now tells everyone he has the latest scoop on this whole affair. Very ethical to say the least NOT! The more this person opens up his mouth on TV or writes, the sillier he looks. What next? Perhaps he has already solved the C130 crash for us. GT is an idiot.
As for Boeing I have a feeling the idiot from Boeing ( after all we only have GT word for that) that spoke to GT does not represent Boeing especially when they have a number of matters involving litigation before the Court or pending.
The pilots are dead and therefore cannot defend themselves.
Boeing person tells GT about one of the dead persons training file. Of course defending their product and blaming those that flew it. GT now tells everyone he has the latest scoop on this whole affair. Very ethical to say the least NOT! The more this person opens up his mouth on TV or writes, the sillier he looks. What next? Perhaps he has already solved the C130 crash for us. GT is an idiot.
As for Boeing I have a feeling the idiot from Boeing ( after all we only have GT word for that) that spoke to GT does not represent Boeing especially when they have a number of matters involving litigation before the Court or pending.
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As has been discussed at length on PPRuNe, the "robust training standards" are only as good as what was provided by Boeing, which we know was insufficient. Indeed, the notorious Lionair requested additional MAX 8 training from Boeing and were turned away.
The original threads for each crash are still available in the PPRuNe archives, go and read for yourself how quickly race was implicated as a cause for each incident.
If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger.
Personally, I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with colour, just lots of experience operating there.
GT brought up the race issue in thinly veiled slanderous comments finishing with “my friends at Southwest love the aircraft” and stating that Boeing’s only mistake was assuming that the aircraft would be flown by competent (ie: not brown africans or asian) crews.
Boeing actively discouraged simulator training on the max and sold it as “just your good ol’ B737 that your pappy flew”.
However even that is debatably unsafe since they didnt tell anyone about mcas.
Boeing actively discouraged simulator training on the max and sold it as “just your good ol’ B737 that your pappy flew”.
However even that is debatably unsafe since they didnt tell anyone about mcas.
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Absolute rubbish!
It took the crew and the jump seater considerable time to deactivate the electric trim - they did this because they thought the STS was running in the wrong direction.
Reply. We have no evidence of that since CVR is not release. CVR holds the clue to,a problem hurting the aviation industry and yet not in public domain.
How on Earth you can interpret that to be - they identified a trim runaway and followed the correct memory item is beyond belief.
reply. They turned off the STAB SWITCHES in time. That’s the life saver technique that’s taught or should be to all 737 pilots
This same crew you consider in high regard for dealing with the MCAS in the correct way, continued on to destination with the stick shaker still active - hardly by the book guys.
Reply. True. I would have landed back in Bali following a serious malfunction I didn’t understand and that required a pilot passenger to assist me with stick shaker going too- very noisy and distracting. But, that error is small compared with saving the plane. One of our pilots stalled a jumbo in a holding pattern. Not too good really. But his stall recovery was flawless. On balance nobody died and that’s what matters
The second Lion Air guys did not have a "runaway trim" that check list was revised after that crash & the word "continuous" was added.
Reply. Not so. Continuous has been there since the 707 and 737-100. They had all they needed like the guy(s) the day before b
Ethiopian probably re-engaged the electric trim because the reduced size manual trim wheel was not working - note * the trim wheel was marginal prior to it's reduction in size, that is why the Yo Yo procedure was in the early 737 manuals.
It took the crew and the jump seater considerable time to deactivate the electric trim - they did this because they thought the STS was running in the wrong direction.
Reply. We have no evidence of that since CVR is not release. CVR holds the clue to,a problem hurting the aviation industry and yet not in public domain.
How on Earth you can interpret that to be - they identified a trim runaway and followed the correct memory item is beyond belief.
reply. They turned off the STAB SWITCHES in time. That’s the life saver technique that’s taught or should be to all 737 pilots
This same crew you consider in high regard for dealing with the MCAS in the correct way, continued on to destination with the stick shaker still active - hardly by the book guys.
Reply. True. I would have landed back in Bali following a serious malfunction I didn’t understand and that required a pilot passenger to assist me with stick shaker going too- very noisy and distracting. But, that error is small compared with saving the plane. One of our pilots stalled a jumbo in a holding pattern. Not too good really. But his stall recovery was flawless. On balance nobody died and that’s what matters
The second Lion Air guys did not have a "runaway trim" that check list was revised after that crash & the word "continuous" was added.
Reply. Not so. Continuous has been there since the 707 and 737-100. They had all they needed like the guy(s) the day before b
Ethiopian probably re-engaged the electric trim because the reduced size manual trim wheel was not working - note * the trim wheel was marginal prior to it's reduction in size, that is why the Yo Yo procedure was in the early 737 manuals.
And I bet it worked. They never expected anyone to leave on full power and get way out of design parameters. No manufacturer guarantees a plane outside design limits.
Thats just another view of the same events from a different perspective
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Simple facts: Same crews, Same training, Same Angle of Attack vane (identical part number) for the NG and the MAX.
Fatal accident rate: NG 0.06 per million departures (100+ million departures), MAX 3.08 per million departures (0.65 million departures). No know flight control fatal accidents for NG.
Same everything EXCEPT additional software in the MAX controlling the stabiliser trim.
If we took out over-runs, undershoots, loss of control and a mid air due to human errors, the rate for the NG would be even lower, the NG is an amazingly safe aircraft. The MAX as certified was not regardless of where the accidents occurred. The NG is just as capable of killing when crewed by incompetent pilots. Ten fatal accidents for the NG since 1997, two for the MAX in less than 2 years.
Put yourself in the position of the airworthiness authorities with the above comparable accident rate. Would you allow it to fly in your jurisdiction based on those numbers? How could you have justify allowing this to fly if there was an accident on your watch?
That is why the MAX is still grounded.
Fatal accident rate: NG 0.06 per million departures (100+ million departures), MAX 3.08 per million departures (0.65 million departures). No know flight control fatal accidents for NG.
Same everything EXCEPT additional software in the MAX controlling the stabiliser trim.
If we took out over-runs, undershoots, loss of control and a mid air due to human errors, the rate for the NG would be even lower, the NG is an amazingly safe aircraft. The MAX as certified was not regardless of where the accidents occurred. The NG is just as capable of killing when crewed by incompetent pilots. Ten fatal accidents for the NG since 1997, two for the MAX in less than 2 years.
Put yourself in the position of the airworthiness authorities with the above comparable accident rate. Would you allow it to fly in your jurisdiction based on those numbers? How could you have justify allowing this to fly if there was an accident on your watch?
That is why the MAX is still grounded.
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Gee sunfish , didn’t know you were so “woke”. I haven’t met a single B737 pilot , and I know plenty, that doesn’t think both accidents were anything other than a clusterf#@K, MCAS or no MCAS. If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger. Personally , I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with color , just lots of experience operating there.
I am in hospital right. Now recovering from surgery. Any hospital? No. I picked the one with the best safety record. They aren’t all the same as we know .
Home today so less time to rattle off on these pages but I really enjoy the arguments ebbing and flowing whether I agree with them or not. We all benefit here.
R Guy
