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GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'

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GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'

Old 26th Jan 2020, 00:32
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Tdracer:
1) Pilot reaction time to a trim issue was assumed to be 4 seconds - Boeing has now acknowledged that was too optimistic and 15 seconds is being used going forward.
I’m afraid I can’t agree to classify this event as just a”trim issue” that’s like calling the collision between the Titanic and an iceberg an ice issue.

The MCAS failure included multiple alarms unrelated to trim position and the behavior of the trim system was not identifiable as a known failure mode.

To put that another way, how would you react if someone fitted a Tesla like automatic steering system to your old F100 without telling you? How can you identify a system failure if you have no knowledge of the existence of the system itself? That is the logical iceberg that Boeing founders on.

It must be terrible living through all this in the Seattle area.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 01:16
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by retired guy View Post
Hating GT as I see above is no way to move forward. Tackle the ball not the man
R Guy
Not hating the guy, just hating the unfounded commonly incorrect rubbish that flows from him on a regular basis. Couldn't imagine waking to that trash on my local network or daily news read all the time. It's a sad situation when his so called reporting / journalism (use that term very loosely) pervades media sources and outlets here on the other side of the pond.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 01:38
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Originally Posted by A320ECAM View Post
Show me the video because I am not able to find that one you describe.

On a side note -

look how easy it is to save the plane with this simulation. Ignore the Oscar worthy acting of the instructor during the "simulated crash scenario".

https://youtu.be/l-tmcQebeN8

Obviously the faster the plane is going, the more difficult it is to manually trim the plane using the wheel. However, had the Ethiopian pilots not left power to TOGA and were doing 300kts+, the wheel would have been easier to move!
Hi 320
Quite so. At lower air speeds the elevator can cope with the trim being well out AND. If any trainer reading has access to a sim. Please run trim to zero and see if elevator can cope and at what max airspeed. I can do it tomorrow but I’d have to rent a sim for 1000 pounds ! I am retired on pension!

This video is a farce when he shows “correct way”. He turns off the STAB switches before using MANUAL TRIM to retrim back into safe green range.
He should use the easy fast electric trim first line of defence and hold those thumb switches until he’s no longer pulling. Ie plane in trim. Then SWITCHES OFF
Trim manually

The other thing is that they seem to be easily able to trim manually when way out of trim in a dive. As we know that’s not possible and was never meant to be possible so I’m guessing the sim doesn’t represent the true forces.
R Guy. With insomnia

Last edited by retired guy; 26th Jan 2020 at 07:21.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 01:49
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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It frustrates me that Boeing are taking far too much blame for this and not the airline's training department!
Lion wanted to provide their crews with additional training but were talked out of it by guess who............Boeing
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 01:57
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Originally Posted by chuboy View Post

As has been discussed at length on PPRuNe, the "robust training standards" are only as good as what was provided by Boeing, which we know was insufficient. Indeed, the notorious Lionair requested additional MAX 8 training from Boeing and were turned away.

The original threads for each crash are still available in the PPRuNe archives, go and read for yourself how quickly race was implicated as a cause for each incident.


An ironic way to end your rant.
I haven’t picked up on the race word too much to be fair. Might have missed it though. Point me! Many commentators have mentioned AF447 as almost same inability to fly basic modes when it all turns sour. Asiana too. And many others like that. But it is true that in the last ten years most serious accidents to passenger airlines were in three regions of the world. And only a few were in USA Europe. German Wings Turkish AMS. Others? But not many. I think it’s fact rather than racial prejudice. 200 airlines are banned from flying in EU. Many were/are in former USSR, Indonesia and Africa. Lionair was not, at the time of the crash, on the list. Point is that not all airlines are the same.
Some are way above the minimum requirements to obtain an AOC. Most are somewhere well above the red line. 200 or so are not . Unless one believes the EU. is prejudiced along racial lines.
just trying to get a balance on this racial card.
best wishes
R Guy



Last edited by retired guy; 26th Jan 2020 at 07:23.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 02:09
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Lion wanted to provide their crews with additional training but were talked out of it by guess who............Boeing
it’s up to each airline to train to whatever standard above the minimum they see fit. I’ve worked for three. And they all added in extra training where needed. But to do that the airline needs to have bags of experience itself. With newer and startups a totally different model may be needed. But would they be happy to have the manufacturer insisting on very high standards and checking those standards through the years through audits? And Manufacturers although they do train and have audit capabilities would need to massively expand that to monitor literally hundreds of new airlines coming along. Daunting task.
Food for thought.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 02:29
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Oh I see, the crashes were caused by letting ignorant black savages fly modern technology airliners. Everyone knows blacks are inferior technologically. (sarcasm mode off). That is Boeing’s message as relayed by Thomas.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 03:06
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
GT is spouting Boeing manufactured fake news.
I'd tend to agree with tdracer regarding Boeing's involvement in production of GT's trash ...
More likely, the clown is just trying, yet again, to big-note and sound like The Man, after having spent hours studying blogs and fora, absorbing opinions, including those of the biased and clueless (like many of the sim kids that often rant on here).
He probably believes he'll get preferential treatment from Boeing if he publishes the most glowing pieces, polishing as he goes.
I've never met the clown, but know others who have ... and not one has liked him, let alone agreed with him (his boss had zero respect for him, as did most if not all of his colleagues!).
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 03:19
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When a Boeing test pilot takes 4 attempts to recover from this in a sim knowing it was coming, what chance did any line pilot have ?

”The pilot, Mark Forkner, told another Boeing employee in 2016 that the flight system, called MCAS, was “egregious” and “running rampant” while he tested it in a flight simulator.“So I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly),” wrote Forkner, then Boeing’s chief technical pilot for the 737.”

https://apnews.com/822e02570983487f8cac3b43fd9defcb
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 03:19
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Originally Posted by ifylofd View Post
Not hating the guy, just hating the unfounded commonly incorrect rubbish that flows from him on a regular basis. Couldn't imagine waking to that trash on my local network or daily news read all the time. It's a sad situation when his so called reporting / journalism (use that term very loosely) pervades media sources and outlets here on the other side of the pond.
I’m not that familiar with him. Just googled a few videos and he seems about as clued up as most, and more than some. Maybe you can point me to one where he speaks rubbish? I’ve an open mind and he does seem to irritate a few folk on this thread. But then it started about him and it all seems rather personal. If you don’t like him don’t listen! I don’t I’ve come across more overt dislike of someone in a long time.
I’ll see some more of his utterances and see how it goes. Maybe he likes adverse publicity like some airlines.
R Guy

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Old 26th Jan 2020, 03:45
  #91 (permalink)  
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Curious if true. From the early 00's, Alteon was the training provider to ET. Alteon was a subsidiary of Boeing and was later renamed Boeing Training.
If Boeing remains the training provider to ET, then any argument on poor training is kind of circular.




Last edited by fdr; 26th Jan 2020 at 06:56.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 07:27
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Oh I see, the crashes were caused by letting ignorant black savages fly modern technology airliners. Everyone knows blacks are inferior technologically. (sarcasm mode off). That is Boeing’s message as relayed by Thomas.
Don’t think AF447 crew were black. Plenty of nasty crashes close to home. But we need to
make sure that airlines operate to high standards- not white standards.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 07:50
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Originally Posted by fdr View Post
Curious if true. From the early 00's, Alteon was the training provider to ET. Alteon was a subsidiary of Boeing and was later renamed Boeing Training.
If Boeing remains the training provider to ET, then any argument on poor training is kind of circular.
If true I would agree. CAE seem to have a tie up
with Ethiopia Academy? Google it. Let’s find out!

I’m not a fan of setting up your own academy with 95% pass rate - bit too close to marking your own homework! Then you go to your airline which wants/needs you to pass- certainly pressure to pass.
That said I went to Hamble which was same idea for BOAC/BEA. Difference was heavy selection process with three days of elements which weeded out 3/4 or more of applicants. very high failure rate on 18 month course with few holidays. 250 hours flying in bad weather mostly. 50 hours aerobatics on chipmunks. 50 hours on twins (Aztec) much of it solo. Then further attrition at the airline with failures on the type rating and especially at base training which went on for several days due to no good sims. Runaway Stab on 707 was done at 5000 ft in circuit for real and the TC would run it AND for a l o n g time to get it really tough before saying “recover”
And this was in the dark ages when Pontius was still a pilate (pun).
This has changed utterly, the justification being that automation fills the gap. Recent FBW crashes and the Max crashes may point in a different direction, and it’s not one the industry wants to tackle. At all.
R Guy
in case anyone thinks I have a firework up the jacksy and have the opposite of writers cramp, I’m in hospital and on pain killers and half out of it, and bored to tears. But even so, I can still make sense of your postings folks and may our conversations long continue. The only ones I don’t really like are the personal ones.




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Old 26th Jan 2020, 07:51
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Gee sunfish , didn’t know you were so “woke”. I haven’t met a single B737 pilot , and I know plenty, that doesn’t think both accidents were anything other than a clusterf#@K, MCAS or no MCAS. If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger. Personally , I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with color , just lots of experience operating there.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 09:00
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I agree with you.

The pilots are dead and therefore cannot defend themselves.

Boeing person tells GT about one of the dead persons training file. Of course defending their product and blaming those that flew it. GT now tells everyone he has the latest scoop on this whole affair. Very ethical to say the least NOT! The more this person opens up his mouth on TV or writes, the sillier he looks. What next? Perhaps he has already solved the C130 crash for us. GT is an idiot.

As for Boeing I have a feeling the idiot from Boeing ( after all we only have GT word for that) that spoke to GT does not represent Boeing especially when they have a number of matters involving litigation before the Court or pending.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 09:46
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As has been discussed at length on PPRuNe, the "robust training standards" are only as good as what was provided by Boeing, which we know was insufficient. Indeed, the notorious Lionair requested additional MAX 8 training from Boeing and were turned away.
The poster was NOT referring to Boeing, the request for additional training or anything of the like.

The original threads for each crash are still available in the PPRuNe archives, go and read for yourself how quickly race was implicated as a cause for each incident.
So, another thread brings up race issues, this thread doesn't but you pick whatever post you can to create a race issue where there isn't one.

If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger.
Rascist? Hardly. But 'outraged' people like you will turn it into a race issue.

Personally, I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with colour, just lots of experience operating there.
Rascist? Hardly. But 'outraged' people like you will turn it into a race issue.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 09:59
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GT brought up the race issue in thinly veiled slanderous comments finishing with “my friends at Southwest love the aircraft” and stating that Boeing’s only mistake was assuming that the aircraft would be flown by competent (ie: not brown africans or asian) crews.

Boeing actively discouraged simulator training on the max and sold it as “just your good ol’ B737 that your pappy flew”.

However even that is debatably unsafe since they didnt tell anyone about mcas.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 10:49
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Absolute rubbish!

It took the crew and the jump seater considerable time to deactivate the electric trim - they did this because they thought the STS was running in the wrong direction.
Reply. We have no evidence of that since CVR is not release. CVR holds the clue to,a problem hurting the aviation industry and yet not in public domain.

How on Earth you can interpret that to be - they identified a trim runaway and followed the correct memory item is beyond belief.

reply. They turned off the STAB SWITCHES in time. That’s the life saver technique that’s taught or should be to all 737 pilots

This same crew you consider in high regard for dealing with the MCAS in the correct way, continued on to destination with the stick shaker still active - hardly by the book guys.

Reply. True. I would have landed back in Bali following a serious malfunction I didn’t understand and that required a pilot passenger to assist me with stick shaker going too- very noisy and distracting. But, that error is small compared with saving the plane. One of our pilots stalled a jumbo in a holding pattern. Not too good really. But his stall recovery was flawless. On balance nobody died and that’s what matters


The second Lion Air guys did not have a "runaway trim" that check list was revised after that crash & the word "continuous" was added.

Reply. Not so. Continuous has been there since the 707 and 737-100. They had all they needed like the guy(s) the day before b

Ethiopian probably re-engaged the electric trim because the reduced size manual trim wheel was not working - note * the trim wheel was marginal prior to it's reduction in size, that is why the Yo Yo procedure was in the early 737 manuals.
Reply. If you do not sort out the trim using the ELECTRIC MANUAL TRIM , as the drill says, and leave on full power and get over design speed limit of the plane: even beyond test pilot limits you are into no man’s land in terms of manual trim response , yes the wheel won’t turn. The reduction in wheel size I agree will mean that it will be harder to turn for a given out of trim condition. But I bet that up to VMO Boeing tested it with “two pilot effort” as described in the flight training manual. That’s both guys cranking together. But you don’t need to do that if you correct the trim electrically before going SWITCHES OFF.
And I bet it worked. They never expected anyone to leave on full power and get way out of design parameters. No manufacturer guarantees a plane outside design limits.

Thats just another view of the same events from a different perspective
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 10:59
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Simple facts: Same crews, Same training, Same Angle of Attack vane (identical part number) for the NG and the MAX.

Fatal accident rate: NG 0.06 per million departures (100+ million departures), MAX 3.08 per million departures (0.65 million departures). No know flight control fatal accidents for NG.
Same everything EXCEPT additional software in the MAX controlling the stabiliser trim.

If we took out over-runs, undershoots, loss of control and a mid air due to human errors, the rate for the NG would be even lower, the NG is an amazingly safe aircraft. The MAX as certified was not regardless of where the accidents occurred. The NG is just as capable of killing when crewed by incompetent pilots. Ten fatal accidents for the NG since 1997, two for the MAX in less than 2 years.

Put yourself in the position of the airworthiness authorities with the above comparable accident rate. Would you allow it to fly in your jurisdiction based on those numbers? How could you have justify allowing this to fly if there was an accident on your watch?
That is why the MAX is still grounded.

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Old 26th Jan 2020, 11:05
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
Gee sunfish , didn’t know you were so “woke”. I haven’t met a single B737 pilot , and I know plenty, that doesn’t think both accidents were anything other than a clusterf#@K, MCAS or no MCAS. If you think there aren’t training issues in developing countries talk to somebody whose trained Chinese / Indonesian/ African low cost carriers. It’s a massive issue and only going to get bigger. Personally , I wont fly domestically in Indonesia ....period. And its got nothing to do with color , just lots of experience operating there.
George. You’re a brave man in a PC world! I don’t know any 737 pilots either that don’t think that. But there are two EU airlines very close to UK that I wouldn’t fly on either. So it’s not just about race or anything like that. It’s about confidence. Arrogance can be a factor in some “western” airlines. Over confidence. Hubris. That’s as bad as incompetence as we have seen. I know for example a lot of business people who fly on airlines based entirely on safety record and confidence. Even though the cabin service can be awful.
I am in hospital right. Now recovering from surgery. Any hospital? No. I picked the one with the best safety record. They aren’t all the same as we know .
Home today so less time to rattle off on these pages but I really enjoy the arguments ebbing and flowing whether I agree with them or not. We all benefit here.
R Guy
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