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GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'

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GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'

Old 23rd Jan 2020, 19:59
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GT says fatal 737 MAX crashes caused by 'incompetent crew.'

Everybody's favourite Aviation Expert Geoffrey Thomas is in Seattle for the Boeing 777X first test flight. We all know he is a Boeing fan and apologist but a friend who follows him on Facebook sent me these comments he made there about the 737 MAX.

The overriding problem with the MAX is badly trained and incompetent crew. Far more to come out on this aspect soon. In fact there ae a number who hold that view and when you delve into the pilot reports they make for slickening reading. The co-pilot of the Lion Air crash "didn't understand the concept of the stall" according to his instructor. He was the one that lost control of the plane. Some very highly respected voices in the industry are blaming the pilots. BUT they get no "air" because the mass media decided long ago that Boeing was guilty. Things like it rushed the design...nonsense, it was the longest development of any Boeing derivative. I have just been with one of Southwest's check and training captains and he said they love the plane. It will take a while for all to come out but this is I assure you a major watershed for the industry in that it will have to rethink who is flying their planes. All assumptions are out. The mistake Boeing -and Airbus - have made is assuming an experienced well trained crew would fly a well maintained aircraft.
So basically a Boeing apologist, "the 737 MAX is a wonderful plane and it was all the airlines fault".
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 20:15
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From a guy who tried to demonstrate a 777 takeoff with the parking brake on?
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 21:48
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Not a fan of GT but in this case I agree with him.
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 21:57
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Nearly two years before its allowed to fly again-yeah it was just stupid pilots. If it was just stupid pilots then Boeing would have had it back in the air well before now. Stupid pilots or stupid CEO?
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 22:08
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The overriding problem with the MAX is badly trained and incompetent crew. Far more to come out on this aspect soon. In fact there ae a number who hold that view and when you delve into the pilot reports they make for slickening (sic) reading. The co-pilot of the Lion Air crash "didn't understand the concept of the stall" according to his instructor. He was the one that lost control of the plane. Some very highly respected voices in the industry are blaming the pilots. BUT they get no "air" because the mass media decided long ago that Boeing was guilty. Things like it rushed the design...nonsense, it was the longest development of any Boeing derivative. I have just been with one of Southwest's check and training captains and he said they love the plane. It will take a while for all to come out but this is I assure you a major watershed for the industry in that it will have to rethink who is flying their planes. All assumptions are out. The mistake Boeing -and Airbus - have made is assuming an experienced well trained crew would fly a well maintained aircraft.
If I may drop in from the northern hemisphere, surely this deserves much wider circulation, including the lawyers for at least two airlines who presumably loved the aircraft enough to have ordered it.. GT also appears to need some help with writing clear unambiguous English.

Jack



Last edited by T28B; 25th Jan 2020 at 00:53. Reason: You have been here long enough to learn how to use the quote function
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 22:33
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Didn’t know GT had access to the Boeing Chairman’s Lounge as well?!
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 23:07
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GT wouldn't know his ass from his elbow. Having said that, there are some aspects of what he says to be true though.

Good lord, did I just agree with GT?
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 23:19
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Throwing bags for a season at MMA and copy pasting QF media spin is no qualification for much.

However, he may be right. The incompetence of the pilots is likely due the fact that they were not trained to deal with a system they did not know existed on an aircraft so far different form the original design to be unrecognisable.

Of course though, Thomas is neither nuanced in matters of aviation or intellect.
He is simply another mouth piece for a broken corporate model desperately cleaning up the slops ofrom the table of big business.

One might hope the families of the deceased pilots issue proceedings against him and the rag he works for in WA.
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 23:49
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Hang on, this would be a Boeing friendly "leak"* right GT?

This would be the same Boeing that mocked operators who actually wanted to give their pilots additional training (beyond the one hour iPad course): Bloomberg Report: Boeing Mocked Lion Air Calls for More 737 Max Training Before Crash.

Is this the same Boeing that would allow their own family to travel on the MAX and described the FAA thus:
The messages also show the disdain Boeing's ranks held for the FAA, vowing to fight any efforts to require additional simulator training for pilots and comparing presentations the company gave for the FAA to "like dogs watching TV."
my bold. Source :The Register What was Boeing through their heads? Emails show staff wouldn't put their families on a 737 Max over safety fears

again from the Boeing chat logs
Embarrassing communications were sent to investigators last week, which included a comment that “this airplane is designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys.”



The same Boeing who also had a hand in suppressing a 2009 Human Factors report on a fatal 737 accident that had a large degree of system design failure in addition to flight crew error and undocumented behaviour with a system relying on a SINGLE CHANNEL failure just like the MAX (Capt's RA triggered autothrottle flair mode causing idle thrust with the same annunciation RETARD that the crew would expect to see at that point in the configuration sequence), they were happy to see the pilots take all the credit for the accident: NYT: How Boeing’s Responsibility in a Deadly Crash ‘Got Buried’

Do I understand exactly who you are now carrying water for GT, the same Boeing? How can you sleep at night?

Source Documents
*Geoffrey Thomas, will you disclose any consideration or benefit in kind, directly or indirectly from Boeing?
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 23:52
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GT is a f*****g idiot.

Have we really gone back to the bad old days of accidents simply being blamed on “pilot error” with no acknowledgment of the systemic problems that lined up the holes in the Swiss cheese and lead to that error?

The guy is an embarrassment to journalism and aviation.

Ignore.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 00:28
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Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher View Post
Hang on, this would be a Boeing friendly "leak"* right GT?

This would be the same Boeing that mocked operators who actually wanted to give their pilots additional training (beyond the one hour iPad course): Bloomberg Report: Boeing Mocked Lion Air Calls for More 737 Max Training Before Crash.

Is this the same Boeing that would allow their own family to travel on the MAX and described the FAA thus:

my bold. Source :The Register What was Boeing through their heads? Emails show staff wouldn't put their families on a 737 Max over safety fears

again from the Boeing chat logs



The same Boeing who also had a hand in suppressing a 2009 Human Factors report on a fatal 737 accident that had a large degree of system design failure in addition to flight crew error and undocumented behaviour with a system relying on a SINGLE CHANNEL failure just like the MAX (Capt's RA triggered autothrottle flair mode causing idle thrust with the same annunciation RETARD that the crew would expect to see at that point in the configuration sequence), they were happy to see the pilots take all the credit for the accident: NYT: How Boeing’s Responsibility in a Deadly Crash ‘Got Buried’

Do I understand exactly who you are now carrying water for GT, the same Boeing? How can you sleep at night?

Source Documents


*Geoffrey Thomas, will you disclose any consideration or benefit in kind, directly or indirectly from Boeing?


New media spin campaign to move on and hope everyone forgets whilst they try to get the 777x going

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Old 24th Jan 2020, 01:18
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It takes two hands to clap. Boeing were decidedly dodgy with their minimalist excuse for training. Likewise the operators of the two crashed MAXs were, shall we politely say, not known for their high standards of required minimum crew competence.

In my mind, the blame lies squarely with airline management across the world - they demand new generation aircraft that can be operated by cheap, minimally trained, dumbed down pilots. And that can be maintained by equally clueless and cheap engineers. Boeing (and Airbus) are merely meeting this demand. The travelling public may want low cost, but they don’t realize the price they’re really paying.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 01:21
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GT is a a shocking example of fake news at its worst.
Its a display of a lack of empathy and a mercenary attitude towards other peoples
suffering, and a corrupt attitude towards aviation safety.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 02:53
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Originally Posted by UnderneathTheRadar View Post
From a guy who tried to demonstrate a 777 takeoff with the parking brake on?
He's an expert mate, he's got his GFPT
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 03:06
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GT's dug a mighty deep hole that he can't climb out of, could we club together and fill it in?
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 03:31
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
GT's dug a mighty deep hole that he can't climb out of, could we club together and fill it in?
Nah - he'll be like the donkey who climbs out as the fill proceeds and then bites you on the ass.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 03:53
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Maybe we should throw GT, or any other hero here who wants to blame a crew who can’t defend themselves anymore, into the sim and recreate the conditions those pilots (I’m thinking more ET) experienced, and see if any of these heroes have the physical strength to physically pitch the aircraft up when the stab has trimmed so far nose down.

After having seen some videos where crews in a sim were presented with similar conditions and struggled to maintain control it would be difficult, even for experienced crews with prior knowledge of what was going to happened as opposed to a crew who was presented with a surprise event that didn’t match any of their prior training.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 04:07
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A level of experience would have gone a long way to fixing this issue, many times 737’s have experienced issues with the Elec pitch trim after takeoff ( either runaways, locked or failed trims ) and handled the situation to a successful outcome by disconnecting the elec stab trim and using manual trim. They lived to tell the story and write it up in the book ( and make a report in the NASA database )

and that’s just the US failures I’ve located, there would be many more stab trim runaways and failures around the World in the last 20 years....

Thats the way it is.......

There is no substitute for experience, full stop end of story.

Last edited by ACMS; 24th Jan 2020 at 04:54.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 04:13
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Just when it appears Thomas has plumbed new lows, he dives even deeper
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 04:18
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as was done many times in the US by highly experienced crews that applied the memory items for runaway stab trim quickly and correctly. Without it seems any knowledge of this MCAS system.
There is no documented case of a MAX trim runaway in the US, or anywhere else, save for two Lion and one Ethiopia events.
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