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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

Old 5th Nov 2019, 07:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremin View Post
How can you be sexually harassed in these days of gender fluidity?

On a serious note I have a close friend who job is to recruit more women for the ADF. She has complained about the level of entitlement of young women these days who, fully aware of their desirability in the virtue signalling game, act as if their recruitment and preferential advancement into the ADF is but assured.

Other tensions arise from the assumption that women on promotional lists are there for quota purposes; which infuriates those who got there on merit.

The same applies in QF; those most loudly decrying these quotas are the old school female pilots. It's No Win from all perspectives.
That is an interesting perspective Captain.
There are those females who are just good. They get there on merit.
Isn't that the idea?
Merit based recruitment.

Specifying discrimination to assure an outcome is just discrimination, no matter the alleged premise.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 07:28
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremin View Post
Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.
Our first Australian female airline pilot is still going strong. There probably haven't been enough female pilots to undergo a full career to make an accurate assessment yet.

Originally Posted by Capt Kremin View Post

The same applies in QF; those most loudly decrying these quotas are the old school female pilots. It's No Win from all perspectives.
If there were quotas that would be an issue. There aren't.

This thread has drifted, there are already enough threads here about female/male pilots, gender quotas in employment etc.

This is about pilots and cabin crew being subjected to harassment and bullying, both males and females.

Last edited by dr dre; 5th Nov 2019 at 08:08.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 08:15
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I've been (straight white male, before people make assumptions I'm speaking on behalf of some fantasy fictitious sisterhood) QF tech crew for 20 years. There is nothing surprising to me in this report.

I have flown with many of the senior female pilots too. All of them have been totally pleasant to fly with. The only pilot in Qantas I absolutely refuse to fly with is a male, and the only ones I see on the roster and roll my eyes thinking "hang in there - you don't have to socialise with them" are also male.

I have spoken personally to junior female pilots who have been concerned that they are "assumed" to be there only due to recruitment quotas. I have also spoken to more than one male pilot who has decided that they will assume the same thing, which is pretty disappointing. I would've thought they'd give them the benefit of doubt before passing judgement. I've had one pilot say to me with a straight face that female pilots shouldn't be rostered together because all they'll do is argue (obviously hasn't been paying attention to many eye watering stories of male-male cockpit interactions over the years!).

Anyway I can relay many comments which have stuck in my head over these years, including quite recently, which have really raised my eyebrows. Unfortunately they're often preceded by "it's probably not politically correct to say this, but....... (insert asinine derogatory comment here)". I often wish I could respond with "But you had to ****ing say it anyway, didn't you?" but there are CRM issues to contend with when you're at 39,000ft so it can be quite difficult to address it.

Yes this is a "minority" of pilots........ but in my opinion it's not a tiny insignificant one.

I'm actually a bit over it.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 08:40
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DutchRoll View Post
I have flown with many of the senior female pilots too. All of them have been totally pleasant to fly with. The only pilot in Qantas I absolutely refuse to fly with is a male, and the only ones I see on the roster and roll my eyes thinking "hang in there - you don't have to socialise with them" are also male.

Yes this is a "minority" of pilots........ but in my opinion it's not a tiny insignificant one.

I'm actually a bit over it.
I think that comes under the "bullying" part of the report. 1 out of 10 pilots reported having been subjected to bullying. In reality it seems the number is higher. All over aviation we may label them as "idiots", "wankers", "difficult to fly with", but in reality they are workplace bullies.

I hope they have the capacity to understand THEY are the ones who are the target of this report. Either they change their behaviour, or under a new mentality they will have to seek alternative employment.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 10:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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A deliberate corporate policy to recruit based on gender will likely produce non-merit based appointment.

What a wonderful way for Little Napoleon to manufacture another crisis.
Sure beats running an airline.

Perhaps the more obvious problem is the 2000 pilots who did not reply, presumably majority male.
Are they too scared to speak up too?
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 11:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Australian political correctness at it's finest. Maybe male Pilot's need to identify as females to have a fair chance of acceptance - PC gender choice could be a positive! Then women who are concerned that they are paid less than their male counterparts can identify as men to get a nice little pay rise. If they ever get called in the office for pranging an aircraft, due to their lack of experience, they can convert back to women, for a minor slap on the wrists.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 11:42
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve never understood the relevance of genitalia when flying an aircraft.....is it something to do with the seat belts?
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 18:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremin View Post
Other tensions arise from the assumption that women on promotional lists are there for quota purposes; which infuriates those who got there on merit.
A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 19:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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“I know girls that have came out of sims crying (some laughing) as they believe they‘ve just butchered every component of their sim...had their letter of offer a few weeks later.”

Indeed, and I know boys that have done exactly the same thing.

“The US BLS conducted a long term longitudinal study in the gender pay gap finding a small one existed.”

The BLS study found that on average women are paid about 20% less than men in the US. Small difference?

“The mind boggles as to the crewing arrangement should these pilots decide that they would also like children.”

Australia is a typical developed country, an aging population with a declining birth rate. It is an economic imperative for Australians to have more children.
Progressive countries have figured out that accommodating child birth within the labor market is not only morally prudent but economically mandatory.

“By definition, the alleged Qantas target for gender representation means that qualified male candidates will be passed over in favor of female candidates that meet threshold minimum requirements until such time as the target is deemed to be achieved.”

It doesn't mean this at all.

“She has complained about the level of entitlement of young women these days”

As apposed to the level of entitlement of men displayed here on this thread in a discussion about an industry staffed almost entirely by…..men?

The younger generation are all entitled, boys and girls alike.

“Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.”

Several things about this comment. Firstly, perhaps you could provide some data to support this claim instead of just using your “experience”. And secondly……so what if women want to retire earlier than men. Hats off to them.

“those most loudly decrying these quotas are the old school female pilots.”

Just to be clear, QF do not use quotas in the employment process and have not indicated an intention to do so.

“I've had one pilot say to me with a straight face that female pilots shouldn't be rostered together because all they'll do is argue”

A rather laughable sentiment particularly in reference to Qantas.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 19:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post


A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
That is probably very close to the mark.
People ought just get things on merit and there are plenty of people who do.

Crisis, drama, superlatives and manufactured diversion has long been a staple of the reign of Little Napoleon.
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 19:59
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
The mind boggles as to the crewing arrangement should these pilots decide that they would also like children.
Mate what year are you living in? 1945??!
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Old 5th Nov 2019, 23:51
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Hooray I say,

it’s about time the festering cocoon that shelters the bullying, egotistical narcissists that inhabit some QF cockpits is blown open.

It’s not just women who are abused, I’ve seen grown men in tears following a ‘debriefing’ session from some numbskull who insists on being called Captain or Skipper and believes that he is some sort or aviation god.

they are a small minority, but nevertheless prominent part of QF cockpit culture. Protected by Chief Pilots and normalised by most, they have survived too long.

watch for the quiet retirements.....
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 00:50
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Orange future View Post

“Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.”

Several things about this comment. Firstly, perhaps you could provide some data to support this claim instead of just using your “experience”. And secondly……so what if women want to retire earlier than men. Hats off to them.

“those most loudly decrying these quotas are the old school female pilots.”

Just to be clear, QF do not use quotas in the employment process and have not indicated an intention to do so.
A 20% recruitment "target" when the percentage of female CPL holders in Australia is low single digit, is a quota by any other name.

60% of the female pilots, from a smallish number, who joined ahead of me had voluntarily departed QF before the age of 50. Many below me ( and I cannot quote exact numbers) have done the same. I wasn't criticising their decision to leave, just noting it. I believe it's primarily a life balance thing. Good on them.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 01:40
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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As a male who's lost count of the number of sucker punches taken during the 'GA Journey' i think it's fair to say harassment is not just Gender based.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 06:33
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Forget these stupid quota ideas. Simply hire the best qualified person for the job. Easy.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 06:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure harassments is real and unacceptable. Pilots are not exactly the most "woke" on average.

The bit that annoys me, however, is the remarks about pay inequity. Increasing the number of females employed means a higher percentage of the more junior- and thus lower pad- pilots are female. In other words, addressing past inequity leads to the APPERANCE, without decent analysis, of pay inequilty.

A senior female pilot gets paid the same as a senior male one. There are just fewer of them.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 08:10
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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The first intake at the academy in Toowoomba is 50% women, despite Qantas stating that around 15% of those who expressed interest were women. Does anyone really believe that 50% of those who went on to apply were women? Are the people at Qantas really that stupid that they think this won't cause tension between those who didn't receive this sort of special treatment and those who did?
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 08:17
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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A senior female pilot gets paid the same as a senior male one. There are just fewer of them.
But the senior female pilots are all in management. So they get paid more. Or is it lesbians that get paid more than females and males. Or lesbians getting paid more than gays getting paid more than straight females and straight males. Or lesbians getting paid more than gays getting more than cross dressers getting more than straight males and females??

It's very, very confusing for me. All I know is I'm not a lesbian so any Management position under the current regime is by default ruled out for me. In the past, such positions were based on the ability to do them, not which personal parts of myself I wished to place inside particular parts of someone else, but I have come to accept I am a dinosaur and almost extinct. Though not, I hasten to add, by failing to put the correct breeding part in the right sexual organ to procreate. I spent years of fruitful research giving that art a very red hot go.

The Chief Pilot with his penchant for car park and vehicular procreation platforms has, it must be admitted, publicly given the problem more of a red hot go than I have. I wonder if QF solved any potential harassment issue of that person by surrounding them with non gender specific personages lest they feel lustful urges in carparks again??
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 09:26
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The Chief Pilot with his penchant for car park and vehicular procreation platforms has, it must be admitted, publicly given the problem more of a red hot go than I have. I wonder if QF solved any potential harassment issue of that person by surrounding them with non gender specific personages lest they feel lustful urges in carparks again??
lol I have no idea what you’re talking about but it sounds like a classic aviation story.
My two cents on this..... good pilots have two things 1/ Attitude conducive to self improvement 2/ Processing power.
Thats it. If you’re keen to learn and you were born with a brain that can scan and process at a high rate then eventually you’ll do a good job skating down final at 190kts GS. ( I know there’s other things but these are the two most important IMO).
The ability to recall facts from long term memory is something that makes people look smart but it’s the short term memory that separates the aces from the also rans and that has little to do with education or gender.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 10:53
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Orange future View Post
“I know girls that have came out of sims crying (some laughing) as they believe they‘ve just butchered every component of their sim...had their letter of offer a few weeks later.”

Indeed, and I know boys that have done exactly the same thing.

“The US BLS conducted a long term longitudinal study in the gender pay gap finding a small one existed.”

The BLS study found that on average women are paid about 20% less than men in the US. Small difference?

“The mind boggles as to the crewing arrangement should these pilots decide that they would also like children.”

Australia is a typical developed country, an aging population with a declining birth rate. It is an economic imperative for Australians to have more children.
Progressive countries have figured out that accommodating child birth within the labor market is not only morally prudent but economically mandatory.

“By definition, the alleged Qantas target for gender representation means that qualified male candidates will be passed over in favor of female candidates that meet threshold minimum requirements until such time as the target is deemed to be achieved.”

It doesn't mean this at all.

“She has complained about the level of entitlement of young women these days”

As apposed to the level of entitlement of men displayed here on this thread in a discussion about an industry staffed almost entirely by…..men?

The younger generation are all entitled, boys and girls alike.

“Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.”

Several things about this comment. Firstly, perhaps you could provide some data to support this claim instead of just using your “experience”. And secondly……so what if women want to retire earlier than men. Hats off to them.

“those most loudly decrying these quotas are the old school female pilots.”

Just to be clear, QF do not use quotas in the employment process and have not indicated an intention to do so.

“I've had one pilot say to me with a straight face that female pilots shouldn't be rostered together because all they'll do is argue”

A rather laughable sentiment particularly in reference to Qantas.
If the CEO claims that the "target" is 40% women pilots by 2028, an industry with in total less than 7% women pilots, then to achieve such a level of intake there must be active discrimination.
Call it whatever you like, it is, however, no longer merit based.

And just in case some facts might help.


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