Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Project Sunrise

Old 9th Mar 2020, 09:10
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Would be a damn shame if Chicago suffered from a second false start. I believe the original planned service on the Jumbo got pulled at the last minute as well (due to 9/11 I think?). Hopefully it doesnít take another 19 years!

As for network changes, Iíd expect to see further frequency drop, aircraft downsized where possible, maybe schedules rejigged, but most destinations retained. If only we had more 787s sitting around...the aircraft utilisation is through the roof already.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 09:10
  #1842 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Yes Meatbomb I can see the plan. We get them to sign off on a deal for the 350 that we want, then spend several hundred million in set up costs to start up an new entity whilst screwing our share price. It’s a classic plan. The 350 is about a lot more than sunrise and is much more cost effective for the company if it is within the LH award.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 09:10
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meatbomb01 View Post
Normanton and other yes voters:

Explain why when you vote yes and ‘secure’ the flying for a dogsh!t deal, QF don’t just turn around and transfer the flying to a new entity anyway? As long as it’s on new routes, there’s nothing illegal about it? So QF get you suckers to sign a shit deal, and the flying still goes elsewhere. How short sighted can you be?
You may think it’s dogsh!t, but QF isn’t trying to please everyone. They just need to please 51% of the vote.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 09:19
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meatbomb01 View Post
Normanton and other yes voters:

Explain why when you vote yes and ‘secure’ the flying for a dogsh!t deal, QF don’t just turn around and transfer the flying to a new entity anyway? As long as it’s on new routes, there’s nothing illegal about it? So QF get you suckers to sign a shit deal, and the flying still goes elsewhere. How short sighted can you be?
Thanks for your kind thoughts. My question is, how stupid can you be?

Your argument is flawed. Sure they can do that, but what happens to EBA 10 when it gets voted up and the 350's aren't ordered?

What conditions come into play, which ones never eventuate, and what we do gain, and what does the company gain? Have a good think about it my friend. Feel free to enlighten us with your findings.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 10:12
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Originally Posted by meatbomb01 View Post
Normanton and other yes voters:

Explain why when you vote yes and Ďsecureí the flying for a dogsh!t deal, QF donít just turn around and transfer the flying to a new entity anyway? As long as itís on new routes, thereís nothing illegal about it? So QF get you suckers to sign a shit deal, and the flying still goes elsewhere. How short sighted can you be?
The shit parts of the deal are actually associated with the arrival of the 350 (SO pay, MVF, 4 man crew, 20 hr+ duties). So if the 350 doesnít arrive, these shitty parts of the deal donít arrive either. So thereís the hole in your assumption. Itís obvious you are on the outside looking in otherwise you would have known that.

The arrival of the 350, as Captain MW and co. are well aware, means lots of new jobs, expansion and promotions on an overall package that isnít too bad. A yes vote would keep all this in house which hardly seems short sighted to me.

The rest of the deal is good, especially in the current environment eg. 3% pay rises.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 10:20
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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woodja51 has been busy deleting some of his posts re project sunrise...

I wonder why.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 10:37
  #1847 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by dutch_oven View Post
The shit parts of the deal are actually associated with the arrival of the 350 (SO pay, MVF, 4 man crew, 20 hr+ duties). So if the 350 doesnít arrive, these shitty parts of the deal donít arrive either. So thereís the hole in your assumption. Itís obvious you are on the outside looking in otherwise you would have known that.

The arrival of the 350, as Captain MW and co. are well aware, means lots of new jobs, expansion and promotions on an overall package that isnít too bad. A yes vote would keep all this in house which hardly seems short sighted to me.

The rest of the deal is good, especially in the current environment eg. 3% pay rises.
is Captain MW the CSA captain who wrote to AJ? If so, I think I know who he is and am gobsmacked at his audacity! Someone should write to his CSA boss and let them know he is preparing a plan to move all of the CSA Aussie pilots to Qantas. No doubt the Chinese wouldnít be impressed when the time comes to recall those guys only to find they have been hijacked by MW.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 10:49
  #1848 (permalink)  
 
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Lost his medical. Not at CSA anymore. May explain why he’s writing to AJ.

Avagoodone.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 10:57
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post
Lost his medical. Not at CSA anymore. May explain why heís writing to AJ.

Avagoodone.
Now that is a true scab behavioural trait! Unbelievable.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 11:17
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ruvap View Post
is Captain MW the CSA captain who wrote to AJ? If so, I think I know who he is and am gobsmacked at his audacity! Someone should write to his CSA boss and let them know he is preparing a plan to move all of the CSA Aussie pilots to Qantas. No doubt the Chinese wouldnít be impressed when the time comes to recall those guys only to find they have been hijacked by MW.
Theyíre contractors. Thereís no loyalty. They just pick up and go to the next operator. For them to land a widebody gig in Oz would be a dream come true, and they probably canít believe that there are some mainline pilots advocating a No vote.

And expect them (and other Airbus and experienced pilots) to form the bulk of the new entity. Even if, and itís a big if, mainline pilots are eventually allowed to fly at the new entity thereíll be no guarantees theyíll go in as DECs or DEFOs. Those who get there first will write the contract to suit them, any transfers will be a long way out of the comfort zone of what mainline pilots are used to.

Basically kiss goodbye to mainline careers for the majority if that happens.

Very easy to put a stop to, just vote Yes.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 11:21
  #1851 (permalink)  
 
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Another thing Iíve noticed.

At the moment top two threads on Aus and Nz are:

Project Sunrise, and

VA pilots worried about employment.

One airline is looking to invest a lot of money a create a lot of jobs, the otherís pilots are getting concerned about employment.

Donít think thereíll isnít another alternative workforce to crew this new contract waiting right next door if mainline pilots knock back $400k a year jobs?
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 11:49
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Another thing Iíve noticed.

At the moment top two threads on Aus and Nz are:

Project Sunrise, and

VA pilots worried about employment.

One airline is looking to invest a lot of money a create a lot of jobs, the otherís pilots are getting concerned about employment.

Donít think thereíll isnít another alternative workforce to crew this new contract waiting right next door if mainline pilots knock back $400k a year jobs?
Meanwhile the value wiped off the Stockmarket today was in the order of 130 billion. Smart these guys, real smart. More like project Sunset. You vote NO at this juncture and youíre an idiot. Talk of parking 8 A380ís and youíre still advocating NO. Get real, wake up and read some news.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 12:51
  #1853 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
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Meanwhile all the recently agreed provisions will be fully utilised with the remnants of QF
Sigh... again I ask, given these Ďprovisionsí are going to be linked to the arrival of the 350 (from todayís webinar), please list what else in the agreement is so bad if ultimately it doesnít show up.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 12:57
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
Vote yes, it’ll secure the flying! Yeah right...

JQ MkII will start as QF sees an opportunity thanks to Coronavirus and pilots seeking to secure their own futures due to uncertainty overseas.

Mainline pilots then have no recourse for PIA because negotiations are over.

MoUs will be signed and waivers for transfer of business provisions to allow surplus mainline crew to take LWOP for opportunities as SOs with the new entity.
They could’ve done the exact same thing with the 787, virus or not (and I’m sure they would’ve had the vote been no) There would’ve been no legal option to stop it. No amount of PIA would’ve worked. The lesson of 2011.

A no vote would give the company the perfect excuse to outsource however. I don’t think TS would be at webinar #142 right now if the real plan all along was to outsource. It’s obvious management want this deal to go through, but I’m pretty sure they don’t want another 2011 so the offer will be one time only.

Last edited by dr dre; 9th Mar 2020 at 13:30.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 13:39
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
Sure hope you’re right!
Well I'd rationalise it by saying if the long term plan was to outsource and destroy" the LH award the perfect opportunity would've been in 2015 after the huge loss and the impending 787 arrival. But it came on the existing award. Under it's own set of conditions, yes, but almost every pilot I've spoken to says it's a fantastic deal, better than the 330 which is still flown under supposedly superior legacy conditions. The 787 is more senior than the 330. But I remember during the lead up to that vote the same types who are complaining about the 350 now were basically saying the same thing about the 787 then.

The A350 looks like it'll be a more pay than the 787 but a bit more work, and less work than the 330 for more money. But on a global scale utterly downright fantastic T&C's for any flying in this day and age. Don't like it don't bid for it. But even if you don't want to fly it vote Yes and keep it in mainline because it will ensure that the position you do want to get to will come quicker. If it's No and it's outsourced then your career progression is stalled again.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 22:39
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
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And in another 'interesting turn of events', 10 of the 12 A380's are to be grounded amongst other measures to counter the reduction in demand as a result of the virus.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 22:43
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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10 x 380s grounded (ie not flying) until Sep- A no voter would want to give themselves a serious uppercut in the event of this deal being turned down.



I like most started off in the no camp, but things change.



Most VA pilots will be happy if they have a job by mid year.



Iíll be happy if Iím not forced on LWOP this year or worse.



COVID is serious. Not the virus itself- but the scare campaign by the media which has brought the world to a standstill.



I havenít been forced in to a yes vote by AJ or his counterparts, I have made a decision using the facts on the table. Assess your own facts wisely and donít vote based on what your mate might think of you. This is not a pissing contest about who can outlast the other.







Last edited by Green.Dot; 9th Mar 2020 at 22:58.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 22:47
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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It actually doesnít say 10 grounded, all it says is that 2 will be flying. I doubt we will ever see 12 in service ever again.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 22:51
  #1859 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
History repeating itself again indubitably.
You contradict yourself sir. The only way to avoid history repeating itself is to SECURE the 350 flying!

At least they are giving you an option before starting up a Jetstar this time!

Vote YES to secure the flying.

Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post

Meanwhile all the recently agreed provisions will be fully utilised with the remnants of QF.
FALSE information. This was confirmed by Tino in a webinar. Do your research before posting voting advice on here.
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Old 9th Mar 2020, 22:58
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
And in another 'interesting turn of events', 10 of the 12 A380's are to be grounded amongst other measures to counter the reduction in demand as a result of the virus.
It's a good thing this virus will be short term.

Lets look into a hypothetical future. The NO vote gets up, the 350's go to a new entity.

In the future the 380's are grounded for a longer period of time, and or retired. 380 pilots RINd to 330/787. What happens to the junior pilots? Well after the EBA process is followed, redundancy! And remember the 350s never came, so there is no new seniority numbers below you because no new pilots were ever hired (they went to the new entity).

If you are new to this company and are thinking of voting NO in this EBA, you will severely regret it!

Originally Posted by Green.Dot View Post
10 x 380s grounded (ie not flying) until Sep- A no voter would want to give themselves a serious uppercut in the event of this deal being turned down.
100% correct.

I havenít been forced in to a yes vote by AJ or his counterparts, I have made a decision using the facts on the table. Assess your own facts wisely and donít vote based on what your mate might think of you. This is not a pissing contest about who can outlast the other.
No emotion. Facts only. A wise piece of advice.

With our beloved CEO now taking no salary until July 2020, back pay and 3% pay rises is looking pretty good!

Last edited by normanton; 9th Mar 2020 at 23:34.
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