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VA Captain stands crew down after bungled approach

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VA Captain stands crew down after bungled approach

Old 6th Sep 2017, 06:02
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VA Captain stands crew down after bungled approach

Another close call. We seem to have a problem in this country with poor check and training standards being applied to these Cadet schemes which is creating continued problems. Jetstar and Virgin clearly are not putting in the adequate resources for the successful running of the programs. Easyjet and Ryanair nail this.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...captain-stand/
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 06:13
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Despite the cock-up, Kudos to the Capt. for having the balls to knock-off on the following flights - a lot of Aussies would have carried on with the usual 'she'll be right mate' attitude
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 06:54
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From the previous occurrences section of the report:

On 2 April 2017, the crew of a Boeing 737 were on approach to land on runway 19 at
Brisbane Airport (ATSB occurrence 201701579). At 1,400 ft the call for flap 30 was made, but
flap 25 was selected. The landing checklist was commenced at 1,200 ft but interrupted by the
issue of a landing clearance from air traffic control. The checklist was recommenced and
completed at 1,000 ft, however, the flap setting was not identified. At 300 ft, the EGPWS
warning TOO LOW FLAP activated and the crew conducted a missed approach.
Same day, same airport, same runway. Weird
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 08:45
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Another close call. We seem to have a problem in this country with poor check and training standards being applied to these Cadet schemes which is creating continued problems. Jetstar and Virgin clearly are not putting in the adequate resources for the successful running of the programs. Easyjet and Ryanair nail this.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...captain-stand/
Is this just another excuse for cadet-bashing? Where's the evidence that the FO was a cadet, or if they were that was a factor in this incident? And, considering a before landing checklist should include a requirement for both pilots to check flap setting why aren't we holding the Captain partially responsible for the mistake as well?

If anyone reads through ATSB history there's been plenty of cock ups by flight crews of all different backgrounds, as mentioned there was a 737 with, I assume, an experienced crew who made an approach with an incorrect flap setting the very same day. But it seems some have an axe to grind whenever they think something bad has been committed by one of those dastardly "cadets".
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:15
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Is this just another excuse for cadet-bashing?
Maybe.
Why do the ATSB not include the pilot Hours and licence type as standard?
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:39
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It was supposed to be a demonstration of a flapless landing to the student,
but they forgot to switch EGPWS off, just like doing the checklist.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:54
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Final cross check

For what it's worth, Air Niugini had the "500 feet" call. Even though a conventional checklist had been read and completed, the crew would cross check with each other that gear, flaps and props (turboprops) or gear flaps and liftdumpers (F28) were set.
I believe this was a good procedure, but I haven't seen any other operators use it.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:59
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Puff checks, great solution! (Genuinely I still do it silently every approach) perhaps the experience of not being a cadet (dr dre)
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Cilba View Post
For what it's worth, Air Niugini had the "500 feet" call. Even though a conventional checklist had been read and completed, the crew would cross check with each other that gear, flaps and props (turboprops) or gear flaps and liftdumpers (F28) were set.
I believe this was a good procedure, but I haven't seen any other operators use it.
Alive and well

I see eyes darting and people doing these checks to themselves all the time.

My personal TLA is the FUC check; Flaps Undercarriage Clearance - oK
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 10:10
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Doesnt mean you wont get distracted from it every now and then - thats how the cheese holes line up.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 11:02
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What BS from BS. Talk about an armchair QB.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 11:45
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And so the slices of swiss cheese operated as intended, and nobody was hurt.

It must be a slow news week for BS to pick on another airline other than QF.

I guess if Crikey (or any news mob) employed an aviation journalist who actually knew something about aviation, they wouldn't sell any news. It would be too boring to sell.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 12:44
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Cadet Pilot or not, there will always be flights with inexperienced pilots Capt/Co-pilot on board. You have to start somewhere. In this instance the mistake was handled correctly.
My Company starts 250 odd hour Cadet pilots straight onto A320 series in two crew ops. But, they complete about 50 sectors Line training with Training pilots before ,if to the required standard, released to the Line. And the for the first 6 months only rostered with Captains of at least a year LHS time.
My first time flying a real B744 was as Capt. on a full 350+ pax trip, with a Trainer in the RHS of course. Its probably not thing you would announce though on your PA to the pax!!
.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 04:32
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The ATSB points out that had this setting been retained, the aircraft would have been moving at just under stalling speed, that is, no longer technically flying, when it made contact with the ground.
So in my little C172, doing a flapless approach, I shouldn't be hearing the stall warner after flaring just off the ground? and I am about to cause a major catastrophe? jeez, I've been taught wrong
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 05:31
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
So in my little C172, doing a flapless approach, I shouldn't be hearing the stall warner after flaring just off the ground? and I am about to cause a major catastrophe? jeez, I've been taught wrong
Delta T, you'd be in a world of pain with a 20T aircraft flying an approach speed designed for flaps full, flapless.

We all know what happened to the Colgan air, although slightly different reasons for the stall.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 06:38
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So the Training Captain was showing a Flapless approach to the trainee? I find that hard to believe and if that was indeed the case it would be outside the Isarps for a simulator supported aircraft.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:27
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The ATSB points out that had this setting been retained, the aircraft would have been moving at just under stalling speed, that is, no longer technically flying, when it made contact with the ground.
The ATSB have bungled this again. Obviously , when it makes contact with the ground, it is no longer actually flying.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 13:29
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Have you read the report coaldemon?
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 17:17
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
You have to start somewhere. In this instance the mistake was handled correctly.
Yes, you do have to start somewhere. But that shouldn't be the right seat of an airliner!
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 20:54
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And so the slices of swiss cheese operated as intended, and nobody was hurt.
I'm not sure that the Swiss cheese model is supposed to be an illustration of what to do!
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