PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific-90/)
-   -   VA Captain stands crew down after bungled approach (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/599188-va-captain-stands-crew-down-after-bungled-approach.html)

wheels_down 6th Sep 2017 07:02

VA Captain stands crew down after bungled approach
 
Another close call. We seem to have a problem in this country with poor check and training standards being applied to these Cadet schemes which is creating continued problems. Jetstar and Virgin clearly are not putting in the adequate resources for the successful running of the programs. Easyjet and Ryanair nail this.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...captain-stand/

bluesideoops 6th Sep 2017 07:13

Despite the cock-up, Kudos to the Capt. for having the balls to knock-off on the following flights - a lot of Aussies would have carried on with the usual 'she'll be right mate' attitude

strim 6th Sep 2017 07:54

From the previous occurrences section of the report:


On 2 April 2017, the crew of a Boeing 737 were on approach to land on runway 19 at
Brisbane Airport (ATSB occurrence 201701579). At 1,400 ft the call for flap 30 was made, but
flap 25 was selected. The landing checklist was commenced at 1,200 ft but interrupted by the
issue of a landing clearance from air traffic control. The checklist was recommenced and
completed at 1,000 ft, however, the flap setting was not identified. At 300 ft, the EGPWS
warning TOO LOW FLAP activated and the crew conducted a missed approach.
Same day, same airport, same runway. Weird

dr dre 6th Sep 2017 09:45


Originally Posted by wheels_down (Post 9883543)
Another close call. We seem to have a problem in this country with poor check and training standards being applied to these Cadet schemes which is creating continued problems. Jetstar and Virgin clearly are not putting in the adequate resources for the successful running of the programs. Easyjet and Ryanair nail this.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...captain-stand/

Is this just another excuse for cadet-bashing? Where's the evidence that the FO was a cadet, or if they were that was a factor in this incident? And, considering a before landing checklist should include a requirement for both pilots to check flap setting why aren't we holding the Captain partially responsible for the mistake as well?

If anyone reads through ATSB history there's been plenty of cock ups by flight crews of all different backgrounds, as mentioned there was a 737 with, I assume, an experienced crew who made an approach with an incorrect flap setting the very same day. But it seems some have an axe to grind whenever they think something bad has been committed by one of those dastardly "cadets".

framer 6th Sep 2017 10:15


Is this just another excuse for cadet-bashing?
Maybe.
Why do the ATSB not include the pilot Hours and licence type as standard?

SHVC 6th Sep 2017 10:39

It was supposed to be a demonstration of a flapless landing to the student,
but they forgot to switch EGPWS off, just like doing the checklist.

Cilba 6th Sep 2017 10:54

Final cross check
 
For what it's worth, Air Niugini had the "500 feet" call. Even though a conventional checklist had been read and completed, the crew would cross check with each other that gear, flaps and props (turboprops) or gear flaps and liftdumpers (F28) were set.
I believe this was a good procedure, but I haven't seen any other operators use it.

Mail-man 6th Sep 2017 10:59

Puff checks, great solution! (Genuinely I still do it silently every approach) perhaps the experience of not being a cadet (dr dre)

maggot 6th Sep 2017 11:04


Originally Posted by Cilba (Post 9883725)
For what it's worth, Air Niugini had the "500 feet" call. Even though a conventional checklist had been read and completed, the crew would cross check with each other that gear, flaps and props (turboprops) or gear flaps and liftdumpers (F28) were set.
I believe this was a good procedure, but I haven't seen any other operators use it.

Alive and well

I see eyes darting and people doing these checks to themselves all the time.

My personal TLA is the FUC check; Flaps Undercarriage Clearance - oK

maggot 6th Sep 2017 11:10

Doesnt mean you wont get distracted from it every now and then - thats how the cheese holes line up.

Capn Bloggs 6th Sep 2017 12:02

What BS from BS. Talk about an armchair QB.

Derfred 6th Sep 2017 12:45

And so the slices of swiss cheese operated as intended, and nobody was hurt.

It must be a slow news week for BS to pick on another airline other than QF.

I guess if Crikey (or any news mob) employed an aviation journalist who actually knew something about aviation, they wouldn't sell any news. It would be too boring to sell.

cessnapete 6th Sep 2017 13:44

Cadet Pilot or not, there will always be flights with inexperienced pilots Capt/Co-pilot on board. You have to start somewhere. In this instance the mistake was handled correctly.
My Company starts 250 odd hour Cadet pilots straight onto A320 series in two crew ops. But, they complete about 50 sectors Line training with Training pilots before ,if to the required standard, released to the Line. And the for the first 6 months only rostered with Captains of at least a year LHS time.
My first time flying a real B744 was as Capt. on a full 350+ pax trip, with a Trainer in the RHS of course. Its probably not thing you would announce though on your PA to the pax!!
.

DeltaT 7th Sep 2017 05:32


The ATSB points out that had this setting been retained, the aircraft would have been moving at just under stalling speed, that is, no longer technically flying, when it made contact with the ground.
So in my little C172, doing a flapless approach, I shouldn't be hearing the stall warner after flaring just off the ground? and I am about to cause a major catastrophe? jeez, I've been taught wrong :}

The Green Goblin 7th Sep 2017 06:31


Originally Posted by DeltaT (Post 9884578)
So in my little C172, doing a flapless approach, I shouldn't be hearing the stall warner after flaring just off the ground? and I am about to cause a major catastrophe? jeez, I've been taught wrong :}

Delta T, you'd be in a world of pain with a 20T aircraft flying an approach speed designed for flaps full, flapless.

We all know what happened to the Colgan air, although slightly different reasons for the stall.

coaldemon 7th Sep 2017 07:38

So the Training Captain was showing a Flapless approach to the trainee? I find that hard to believe and if that was indeed the case it would be outside the Isarps for a simulator supported aircraft.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 7th Sep 2017 10:27


The ATSB points out that had this setting been retained, the aircraft would have been moving at just under stalling speed, that is, no longer technically flying, when it made contact with the ground.
The ATSB have bungled this again. Obviously , when it makes contact with the ground, it is no longer actually flying.

The Green Goblin 7th Sep 2017 14:29

Have you read the report coaldemon?

Slezy9 7th Sep 2017 18:17


Originally Posted by cessnapete (Post 9883854)
You have to start somewhere. In this instance the mistake was handled correctly.

Yes, you do have to start somewhere. But that shouldn't be the right seat of an airliner!

LookingForAJob 7th Sep 2017 21:54


And so the slices of swiss cheese operated as intended, and nobody was hurt.
I'm not sure that the Swiss cheese model is supposed to be an illustration of what to do!


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:52.


Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.