Hijack attempt on Malaysia Airlines
The UK threw its borders open and is now paying the price for not knowing who is in the country, where they are and what they are up to.
The inability to deport foreigners in the country illegally, even if they have committed crimes, doesn't help either.
The inability to deport foreigners in the country illegally, even if they have committed crimes, doesn't help either.
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Met police, remarkably have tweeted bold advice to public in the event of a terror incident.
Run
Hide
Tell
Running away from the novice terrorist and the bomb on the fuelled jet seems logical.
In the age of novice terrorist RUN is the priority.
Remove the public from the threat.
Such is the chaos that exposing yourself by running is deemed a better option than sitting tight.
Reaction time skill and training of the debutant terrorist works in your favour. The Lynt incident Monis did not prevent the majority of his hostages escaping.
The leverage that 70 tonnes of fuel gives a home made bomb is immense, in a confined locked space.....
These guys are suicide bombers, monis aside, they are not going to negotiate, in all cases they are not masked and don't want to be taken alive.
Mickjoebill
Run
Hide
Tell
Running away from the novice terrorist and the bomb on the fuelled jet seems logical.
In the age of novice terrorist RUN is the priority.
Remove the public from the threat.
Such is the chaos that exposing yourself by running is deemed a better option than sitting tight.
Reaction time skill and training of the debutant terrorist works in your favour. The Lynt incident Monis did not prevent the majority of his hostages escaping.
The leverage that 70 tonnes of fuel gives a home made bomb is immense, in a confined locked space.....
These guys are suicide bombers, monis aside, they are not going to negotiate, in all cases they are not masked and don't want to be taken alive.
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 4th Jun 2017 at 02:45.
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What exactly would need to be a bomb's specs inside a aircraft cabin and it's placement to set off the 70 tonnes of fuel (on ground)?
Not saying it never will, but there have been a number of explosions even near wings and fuel has not been an issue.
Bombs are basically a pressure blast - in a cabin the above floor structure of the cabin will rupture at the weakest point.
Think you are over playing the fuel issue a tad.
A point to ask is at what point was mental illness known? and to what extent was his illness?
The answer to these 2 questions would determine to an extent the risk of leaving them on-board vs an expedited exit of passengers.
Not saying it never will, but there have been a number of explosions even near wings and fuel has not been an issue.
Bombs are basically a pressure blast - in a cabin the above floor structure of the cabin will rupture at the weakest point.
Think you are over playing the fuel issue a tad.
A point to ask is at what point was mental illness known? and to what extent was his illness?
The answer to these 2 questions would determine to an extent the risk of leaving them on-board vs an expedited exit of passengers.
Via mickjoebill:
Met police, remarkably have tweeted bold advice to public in the event of a terror incident.
Run
Hide
Tell
Met police, remarkably have tweeted bold advice to public in the event of a terror incident.
Run
Hide
Tell
If people put up with being treated like immature idiots then they deserve the islamic terror they is going to get even more of..
.
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What interests me about this incident is that having instigated SOPs for bomb warning/hoax as the crew would have done i.e pan call, descent, sq code, land asap and evacuate, is who countermanded that decision and on what authority and how?
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Evacuate seems a bit over the top as a SOP. But if it is the SOP it does not have asap attached.
Or that would been all bomb warning/hoax would need to evacuate on the runway after landing.
In one SOP I did read that was actually the option the Captain had and had to take (evacuate on runway), if that was deemed by him/her as not necessary it was to follow instructions via ATC- if not happy with an instruction he could discuss it.
Now that SOP seems fair and reasonable to me.
Or that would been all bomb warning/hoax would need to evacuate on the runway after landing.
In one SOP I did read that was actually the option the Captain had and had to take (evacuate on runway), if that was deemed by him/her as not necessary it was to follow instructions via ATC- if not happy with an instruction he could discuss it.
Now that SOP seems fair and reasonable to me.
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Thursday was pay day and everyone was probably at the pub. Let's face it, the handlers and intel are already doing a sterling job from preventing bombs getting on board in the first place. So all this being in readiness state for nothing is... well... looking-forward-to-a-drink-after-work kind of thing.
I reckon when the alarm went off they first went looking at the recording of the X-rays of those that boarded to figure out how one got through. It didn't.
Stressful for pax and crew, but if it proved the system run by the handlers and intel is working then it was well worth it.
I reckon when the alarm went off they first went looking at the recording of the X-rays of those that boarded to figure out how one got through. It didn't.
Stressful for pax and crew, but if it proved the system run by the handlers and intel is working then it was well worth it.
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If not he will evacuate the aircraft! no dame way in the World can anyone do their job/s with the Captains say so and immediate reporting back to him!
At a minor guess by the time this aircraft touched down - more than 100 persons would be actioned or ready for further instructions and be on the ready.
The person/s most likely with the least information would be 2 folk sitting up front behind locked door.
Unlike cabin crew, they will not have seen said device with own eyes or the offender or heard the offenders voice.
On the ground information will be slow if at all getting back to ATC to inform the pilots of what numerous agencies are doing, have done or found.
As I posted before, the first can be a decoy for a different target.
- any pilot that will call an evacuation on any and every bomb threat/hoax is one I would rather not fly with.
And if that is an airline SOP tell me I wont fly with you.
Why do crew tell passengers "Brace, Brace, Brace" or "Evacuate, Evacuate, Evacuate"? Because probably only the last word is going to get into their heads.
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Chris2303 I agree...
But perhaps Flying Binghi, could explain the difference between:
"Brace
Brace
Brace" etc...
and
"Run
Hide
Tell"
I still remember from decades ago;
Stop,
Drop,
Roll,
....if ever on fire.
To my way off thinking, simplifying to 3 rudimentary and easily remembered words is pretty damm smart.....considering every one in the real world does not walk around with, nor are required to follow, a QRH.
Unfortunately running in situations such as this thread refers to may not such a good idea ala the terrible death in 2005 of Mr de Menezes.
But perhaps Flying Binghi, could explain the difference between:
"Brace
Brace
Brace" etc...
and
"Run
Hide
Tell"
I still remember from decades ago;
Stop,
Drop,
Roll,
....if ever on fire.
To my way off thinking, simplifying to 3 rudimentary and easily remembered words is pretty damm smart.....considering every one in the real world does not walk around with, nor are required to follow, a QRH.
Unfortunately running in situations such as this thread refers to may not such a good idea ala the terrible death in 2005 of Mr de Menezes.
Once an event that endangers the aircraft is reported several government agencies become involved. They will probably include the AFP, ASIO ,ATC and the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development. There are strict powers of incident and control compliance which empower the secretary to direct an aircraft both in the air and on the ground as they deem necesssary. On the ground the police would be running the show. Unlawful interference is a criminal act. The police and various bodies are now in control. In the air it's up to the good souls on board to stop the threat. No one else can help unless you have the good fortune of having an ASO on board.
When to call an evacuation is only the captain,s decision SOP is for advice only..
ie consider immediate evacuation If a specific threat still exists
Consideration includes the threat and consequences for a delay in disembarking for minutes and possibly hours.
The decision to return to departure airport and fuel jettison
is not made lightly. Only done for a very serious threat.
The bomb was visible and the threat to "blow up this plane". ,was not a hoax but made by an attempted hijacker.
I would be very wrong and dangerous to assume the bomb was not real and possibly filled with high explosives packed with ball bearings etc.
* I don't think it wise to assume zero damage threat
The police and various bodies are now in control.
This is not correct.
The captain is total control until the engines are shut down.
ie consider immediate evacuation If a specific threat still exists
Consideration includes the threat and consequences for a delay in disembarking for minutes and possibly hours.
The decision to return to departure airport and fuel jettison
is not made lightly. Only done for a very serious threat.
The bomb was visible and the threat to "blow up this plane". ,was not a hoax but made by an attempted hijacker.
I would be very wrong and dangerous to assume the bomb was not real and possibly filled with high explosives packed with ball bearings etc.
* I don't think it wise to assume zero damage threat
The police and various bodies are now in control.
This is not correct.
The captain is total control until the engines are shut down.
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When to call an evacuation is only the captain,s decision SOP is for advice only..
ie consider immediate evacuation If a specific threat still exists
Consideration includes the threat and consequences for a delay in disembarking for minutes and possibly hours.
The decision to return to departure airport and fuel jettison
is not made lightly. Only done for a very serious threat.
The bomb was visible and the threat to "blow up this plane". ,was not a hoax but made by an attempted hijacker.
I would be very wrong and dangerous to assume the bomb was not real and possibly filled with high explosives packed with ball bearings etc.
* I don't think it wise to assume zero damage threat
The police and various bodies are now in control.
This is not correct.
The captain is total control until the engines are shut down.
ie consider immediate evacuation If a specific threat still exists
Consideration includes the threat and consequences for a delay in disembarking for minutes and possibly hours.
The decision to return to departure airport and fuel jettison
is not made lightly. Only done for a very serious threat.
The bomb was visible and the threat to "blow up this plane". ,was not a hoax but made by an attempted hijacker.
I would be very wrong and dangerous to assume the bomb was not real and possibly filled with high explosives packed with ball bearings etc.
* I don't think it wise to assume zero damage threat
The police and various bodies are now in control.
This is not correct.
The captain is total control until the engines are shut down.
To quote the above they said evacuate was a SOP and who cancelled that Pan Pan Sop.
And Rubbish - show me the regulation for the "control until engines are shut down"
Absolute crap - now just direct me to that regulation PLEASE
BAND-A-LOT -
How about the Tokyo Convention ARTICLE 5"
and in EK OMA 1.5.3 c "Be responsible for the operation and safety if the aircraft from the moment the aircraft is .... until .... the end of the flight.. AND THE ENGINES ARE SHUT DOWN"
And Rubbish - show me the regulation for the "control until engines are shut down"
Absolute crap - now just direct me to that regulation PLEASE
Absolute crap - now just direct me to that regulation PLEASE
and in EK OMA 1.5.3 c "Be responsible for the operation and safety if the aircraft from the moment the aircraft is .... until .... the end of the flight.. AND THE ENGINES ARE SHUT DOWN"
You arguing over a moot point. If you as the Captain received advice to evacuate the aircraft by the AFP, are you going to ignore it? These are joint decisions based on a layered responsibility. Read some more. Read about control compliance. The aircraft is a crime scene.
Some years ago I had a similar incident resulting in a diversion and landing at a conveniently close en-route alternate. The person in question made some threats to the safety of the flight and in short, at the request of the cabin crew, a couple of our suitably qualified passengers 'subdued' the person in question.
After landing the person was moved to the rear door and offloaded as soon as possible via some mobile stairs by some of North Queensland's finest.
In the 20 to 30-odd minutes from the threat initiation until offloading, a substantial amount of information was obtained about the person, some of which proved to be quite worrying, however didn't alter the decision making process - in fact neither I, nor the arresting Police Officers at the scene were aware of it until some time later.
It's possible that the protective services had far more information about the MH128 assailant than they are making public and it was that information that led to the delay in entering the aircraft.
My event was pre September '11 and rated about 3 column paragraphs in the Queensland papers and little else. How things (media) have changed.
After landing the person was moved to the rear door and offloaded as soon as possible via some mobile stairs by some of North Queensland's finest.
In the 20 to 30-odd minutes from the threat initiation until offloading, a substantial amount of information was obtained about the person, some of which proved to be quite worrying, however didn't alter the decision making process - in fact neither I, nor the arresting Police Officers at the scene were aware of it until some time later.
It's possible that the protective services had far more information about the MH128 assailant than they are making public and it was that information that led to the delay in entering the aircraft.
My event was pre September '11 and rated about 3 column paragraphs in the Queensland papers and little else. How things (media) have changed.
Last edited by C441; 5th Jun 2017 at 02:49.
Once an event that endangers the aircraft is reported several government agencies become involved. They will probably include the AFP, ASIO ,ATC and the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development. There are strict powers of incident and control compliance which empower the secretary to direct an aircraft both in the air and on the ground as they deem necesssary. On the ground the police would be running the show. Unlawful interference is a criminal act. The police and various bodies are now in control.
Same applies on the ground with engines running. The Police can say what they like but if the PIC wants to shut down and evacuate and that's what's going to happen.
The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while he or she is in command and for the maintenance of discipline by all persons on board
FFS of course you would liaise with the control authority as required. The operational decisions still remain but having said that, are you going to jeopardise the safety of the aircraft in order to massage your ego. I don't think so. I bet you still haven't read what a control compliance directive is?