A380 loses MEL/DXB/LHR
night credit protect the pilots from rosters of all night flying by loading the flying so that not as much could be fitted (flying wise) on a roster
I think the suggestion that losing night credits will kill you, (or worse), is being a little alarmist.
Only just saw this:
Most pilots are too stupid to understand the pay loss with a higher hourly rate but losing all overtime and flying 33% more without the night credits
Last edited by Beer Baron; 27th Apr 2017 at 11:46. Reason: Poor spelling
The planning divisor on the for the 747 and A380 is 13% higher than the 787 planning divisor. The effect of losing night credits is about a 17% reduction in credit hours. So when you offset one against the other you won't be doing that much extra flying due to the night credit issue.
I think the suggestion that losing night credits will kill you, (or worse), is being a little alarmist.
Only just saw this:
I am clearly one of those "stupid" pilots so can you explain how an extra 1 third of a credit hour that is payed only half the time can lead to flying 33% more?
I think the suggestion that losing night credits will kill you, (or worse), is being a little alarmist.
Only just saw this:
I am clearly one of those "stupid" pilots so can you explain how an extra 1 third of a credit hour that is payed only half the time can lead to flying 33% more?
That would be correct if Qantas flew schedules evenly over 24 hours but long haul at Qantas is predominantly flown at night based on local departure. Very few if not no flights departs at 8am local. Even the all daylight SYD JNB flight attracts night credits ATM.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all the experts waxing lyrical about the effects of night credits on QF long haul flying you need to brush up on your facts. For example “...night credit protect the pilots from rosters of all night flying…” and ”…. A 767 sized aircraft with no night protections (night credit) flying all night…”.
On a current 10 day LHR pattern on the 380 the credits are 55 hours, night credits add precisely zero to this. Similarly on a 9 day pattern the credits are 50:30 where night credits add a total of 1:00 hour to the away credits of 49:30.
So all the rubbish about night credits saving everyone is just that, rubbish.
Further on the 380 with planning divisor of 175 and actual divisors 160 – 180 crew are flying on average 27 – 32 days a 56 day bid period.
On the 787 flying the announced schedules a LHR pattern will be 5 days and 35 stick hours. With both planning and actual divisors 145 – 175 this means that crew will work a maximum of 25 days a bid period and possibly as little as 21. Hardly a salt mine scenario.
On a current 10 day LHR pattern on the 380 the credits are 55 hours, night credits add precisely zero to this. Similarly on a 9 day pattern the credits are 50:30 where night credits add a total of 1:00 hour to the away credits of 49:30.
So all the rubbish about night credits saving everyone is just that, rubbish.
Further on the 380 with planning divisor of 175 and actual divisors 160 – 180 crew are flying on average 27 – 32 days a 56 day bid period.
On the 787 flying the announced schedules a LHR pattern will be 5 days and 35 stick hours. With both planning and actual divisors 145 – 175 this means that crew will work a maximum of 25 days a bid period and possibly as little as 21. Hardly a salt mine scenario.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^ what they said.
Stop listening to the pilot next to you (or on PPRUNE or Qrewroom) and actually read the contract.
Night credits? Overtime? Talk to your colleagues in former golden-career Emirates or Qatar about how their credit hours are calculated. Or any of the wonderfully high paying contract airlines we all laud, but very few actually work for.
Sure take advantage of the rort, but please don't try and justify it.
Stop listening to the pilot next to you (or on PPRUNE or Qrewroom) and actually read the contract.
Night credits? Overtime? Talk to your colleagues in former golden-career Emirates or Qatar about how their credit hours are calculated. Or any of the wonderfully high paying contract airlines we all laud, but very few actually work for.
Sure take advantage of the rort, but please don't try and justify it.
Whichever way I look at it, the result seems to be an extra trip and a half a roster. Of itself that doesnt seem like much and like Joyce, I am 100% confident crews will do it and repeatedly tell each other 'its not that bad. Actually, we quite like the life'. The constant jet lag will have an affect. Watch body weight, fitness etc compared to those that dont spend their lives in the wrong time zone. Then see the relatively ridiculously high numbers of ex QF crew with similar, but statistically highly unusual brain disorders at very early ages. Emirates like? Not quite, but that extra trip and a half every 6-8 weeks year in year out will make itself felt, I guarantee it. Night credits were important - certainly to me, and I never gave a flying fig about overtime. 99% of the time I felt like absolute crap after 16+ hours anyway and at 20 you just arent thinking straight. Doing that regularly (even assuming a decent crew rest) is going to be unpleasant.
And yes, I know people said the same when the 707 and SP came into service. No matter which way you cut it though, this is REGULAR tours 30-40% more than the SP. And if its so good for you, why dont the staff at QCA work 8am - 2am and every 3rd alternate day 3am - 7pm, maybe once a fortnight 6am - 8am the following day. And while I'm talking about that, surely its just as good to work those hours over importabt family and national events like Christmas and wedding anniversaries, year after year....
PS: You simply cannot plan for those times you simply cant sleep before call. Sometimes you can, usually you cant. Or I cant. Sometimes its helpful to be tired at the start so you can sleep on your rest. Sometimes it isnt. And thats the problem - everyone and every flight is different. The great Juju designed humans and most mammals to have regular restoritive sleep patterns. In the last 50 years airline management has decided that for operational crews, the Juju's 'rules' dont apply. I dont think the Juju will be taking that lying down forever....
And yes, I know people said the same when the 707 and SP came into service. No matter which way you cut it though, this is REGULAR tours 30-40% more than the SP. And if its so good for you, why dont the staff at QCA work 8am - 2am and every 3rd alternate day 3am - 7pm, maybe once a fortnight 6am - 8am the following day. And while I'm talking about that, surely its just as good to work those hours over importabt family and national events like Christmas and wedding anniversaries, year after year....
PS: You simply cannot plan for those times you simply cant sleep before call. Sometimes you can, usually you cant. Or I cant. Sometimes its helpful to be tired at the start so you can sleep on your rest. Sometimes it isnt. And thats the problem - everyone and every flight is different. The great Juju designed humans and most mammals to have regular restoritive sleep patterns. In the last 50 years airline management has decided that for operational crews, the Juju's 'rules' dont apply. I dont think the Juju will be taking that lying down forever....
Last edited by V-Jet; 27th Apr 2017 at 22:23.
Got an explanation for this figure of 17%?
Yes, you are quite correct that it oversimplifies the situation as schedule will mean the hours are not split 50/50 day/night. However the split is certainly closer to 50/50 than 100% night flying, which is the only way you can equate a 33% flying increase.
Then add to that, as the replies above have pointed out, many trips credits are governed by minimum daily credit, the 787 will still get night credits for 2 and 3 crew ops and 787 divisors will be lower than the other fleets.
The loss of night credits on 4 crew sectors can not increase flying by 33% it will be a much smaller amount.
On the 787 flying the announced schedules a LHR pattern will be 5 days and 35 stick hours.
How does a LHR trip stack up if you're Melbourne-based, in terms of days away and credits?
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Unfortunately not the Orient
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 88 Likes
on
32 Posts
The assumption would be that East Coast based pilots won't go to LHR, but if they did you could add one day at the start, and at least 2 at the end as they will require 2 nights in Perth on the return. I believe this requirement is the motivation behind the Perth Base (as it also will extend Minimum Base Turnaround requirements). So it would be an 8 day trip presumably worth 44hrs.
Nunc est bibendum
The assumption would be that East Coast based pilots won't go to LHR, but if they did you could add one day at the start, and at least 2 at the end as they will require 2 nights in Perth on the return. I believe this requirement is the motivation behind the Perth Base (as it also will extend Minimum Base Turnaround requirements). So it would be an 8 day trip presumably worth 44hrs.
Well it's mostly still rin guys/gals getting back in the RHS but maybe 15 yrs.
The may alloc will go a bit more jnr i guess
The may alloc will go a bit more jnr i guess
Nunc est bibendum
Someone double check my maths for me:
PER- LHR: 18:20 block. 12 night (based on 2000-0800 at point of departure). 24:20 credit for the tour of duty on the current system. 18:20 on the new system.
LHR- PER: 15:45 block. 9:15 night. 18:50 for the tour of duty on the old system. 15:45 on the new.
Pattern Credit (old): 43:10
Pattern Credit (new): 34:05
A difference of 22% between the credit hours under the old system.
Planning divisor for 787 is 14% less than other LH fleets so you'll work harder to get to divisor no doubt.
Pay rate difference between 787 and equivalent sized aeroplane in QF fleet- A330- is? (Don't have iPad on me so can't check).
Sure, no overtime unless you're running late.
MEL- LAX: 14:25 block. 8:50 night. Credit under old system is 17:22.
LAX- MEL: 16:35 block. 8:25 night. Credit under the old system is 19:23
Total credit old system: 36:45
Total credit new system: 31:00
A difference of 15.5% so presuming both groups of pilots flying MEL- LAX- MEL are pretty close to flying the exact same amount on that route- within 1.5%.
Obviously any schedule changes could change those numbers slightly.
PER- LHR: 18:20 block. 12 night (based on 2000-0800 at point of departure). 24:20 credit for the tour of duty on the current system. 18:20 on the new system.
LHR- PER: 15:45 block. 9:15 night. 18:50 for the tour of duty on the old system. 15:45 on the new.
Pattern Credit (old): 43:10
Pattern Credit (new): 34:05
A difference of 22% between the credit hours under the old system.
Planning divisor for 787 is 14% less than other LH fleets so you'll work harder to get to divisor no doubt.
Pay rate difference between 787 and equivalent sized aeroplane in QF fleet- A330- is? (Don't have iPad on me so can't check).
Sure, no overtime unless you're running late.
MEL- LAX: 14:25 block. 8:50 night. Credit under old system is 17:22.
LAX- MEL: 16:35 block. 8:25 night. Credit under the old system is 19:23
Total credit old system: 36:45
Total credit new system: 31:00
A difference of 15.5% so presuming both groups of pilots flying MEL- LAX- MEL are pretty close to flying the exact same amount on that route- within 1.5%.
Obviously any schedule changes could change those numbers slightly.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lost, but often Indonesia
Posts: 653
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I apologize if this is a naive question.
Is the A380 a suitable aircraft to fly Melb, Bris or Sydney to Perth return sectors economically? Would the demand be there to fill an A380 on these sectors?
In other words is it a viable use for these aircraft?
Thanks
Octane
Is the A380 a suitable aircraft to fly Melb, Bris or Sydney to Perth return sectors economically? Would the demand be there to fill an A380 on these sectors?
In other words is it a viable use for these aircraft?
Thanks
Octane
East bound you only have a 78 coming in so far. No other feeders for now. Maybe more 78 services to FRA CDG ? Dunno.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The constant jet lag will have an affect. Watch body weight, fitness etc compared to those that dont spend their lives in the wrong time zone.
Literally freezing pilots out, and convincing them of their relative lack of self worth, allowed Joyce et al to throw 80 (odd) aircraft at JQ, whilst simultaneously shrinking QF fleet by the same amount. This ensured those pilots left at QF were facing reduced flying lines, RIN and lock-outs..
Is it any wonder pilots surrendered so much for 8 aircraft?
Analysing the route structure, aircraft, schedule and pricing does not fill one with confidence the route is sustainable. A loss leader maybe, but in surrendering so much of the existing network for the 'terminal' Qantas International in 2011, whilst Joyce fiddled in Asia there may no longer be sufficient demand in-elasticity for the Qantas 'product', particularly given the Y class seating configuration.
Totally agree. TM... Slight thread drift, but partly in response to above on the business case, I've had an interesting few months playing airlines and I think I've cracked where Joyce is going. In the last 5 months I've bought 11 full fare long haul sectors, First and Business. I am happy to share that the QF First product until you are on the aircraft (crews were fantastic) is woeful. It even starts with 'selected QF flights get limousine service' (read nothing to do with QF, but if EK force us to provide it for 'their' legs you have a taxi). I also would have thought with a full fare 1st ticket you would have a designated 'assistance' line with all the bells and whistles. No - I actually had to fight the booking number to prove I had even bought the ticket ('sorry Sir, we have rechecked our records and you are indeed correct'..) and only then after being on hold for up to 45 minutes on 3 seperate occasions and being sold everything from accomodation, car hire, restaurants, tours right down to bottles of wine. It was a joke and VERY reminiscent of staff travel. No Frequent Flyer number = second class citizen - I have one but I was NOT going to provide it from memory when had a booking reference number and I'd just spent $14k on a damn ticket! With the Business tickets (2 different airlines) I booked directly and not through QF. One QF Partner and one not. Tix booked through the airline directly are slightly cheaper ($3-500ea) than through QF. Now, here's the thing; despite being a partner airline you don't get (or none of mine did) access to QF lounges unless you have a QF ticket... Then it dawned on me! It's long been a criticism that Qf isn't interested in aircraft and from what I can see the only thing QF has been really good at is Lounges. Thats the hook to get you in. Thats how they are forcing traffic through the QF.com website. It's a data mining and FF business, an airline a very late second/fifth with the Lounges as the 'bait'. Particularly with the 1st ticket the bumf that was 'suggested' as things to do to earn QF FF points at the destination was almost offensive. Sorry to drift like this, a bit of a rant, and a 'raw' hypothesis, but it was like a light bulb going off in my head. That's where they see the profit, we were right, it's not the metal at all, that's just incidental. They are measuring the business in column inches of advertising and FF revenue - they probably hope the PER-LHR route works, but gee they got good press out of the announcement.
TM: Convincing pilots (and other great employees) of their relative lack of self worth is the thing that REALLY gets me. It's deliberate, it was calculated and has been done so obviously by Joyce. And we fell for it.... And we continue to fall for it. Make him fly his own (well the shareholders) jets for 18 hours at a time twice a week for 5 years and see how he feels....
TM: Convincing pilots (and other great employees) of their relative lack of self worth is the thing that REALLY gets me. It's deliberate, it was calculated and has been done so obviously by Joyce. And we fell for it.... And we continue to fall for it. Make him fly his own (well the shareholders) jets for 18 hours at a time twice a week for 5 years and see how he feels....
Last edited by V-Jet; 28th Apr 2017 at 06:50.
I'd suggest you read RM28.4 and RM29. The only difference between the 787 and the rest of the LH fleet in how a trip's credited hours are calculated is night credits. 787 get full night credits on 2 crew flights and gets 25% rather than 33% loading on 3 crew flights and nothing for 4 crew.
All types credited hours are based on stick hours or MDC, 787 included. Overtime uses duty hours but pattern credited hours do not.
So I'd suggest that "your [sic] incorrect."