A380 loses MEL/DXB/LHR
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The 787 flying PER-LHR will get zero night credits. The trips are short enough that MDC will never be higher than stick hours.Thats why Qantas wanted a Perth base. The 787 isn't flying two or three pilot night flying so that's an irrelevant statement.
Both sectors include, 12 hours of local night to London and approximately 11.5 hours home.
That's approximately 7.85 hours each trip in night credits you lose.
Be around 32.5 stick or 40.3 credit hours with night credits.
If you fly planned stick hours of 155 with carry out that's around 190 credit hours your flying every roster.
So 155 STICK HOURS might seem like a lower number, however when you convert it to CREDIT HOURS it's closer to 190.
So your either Being disengenuous or you don't understand it.Dont feel bad, most pilots saw 155 and thought, wow it's a smaller number.
2/3 pilot comparisons and MDC are irrelevant points when looking at planned 787 flying.
As others have said, Without night credits your easily doing an extra trip per roster.
Still be a ok gig IMHO. The one benefit of losing all the overtime is there is no financial penalty to go sick if your tired or to "give it a go" if your not 100%. As someone mentioned above if they frown on fatigue then just go sick.
It would be reasonable to expect flying 190 credit hours per roster sickness will be higher anyway.
Both sectors include, 12 hours of local night to London and approximately 11.5 hours home.
That's approximately 7.85 hours each trip in night credits you lose.
Be around 32.5 stick or 40.3 credit hours with night credits.
If you fly planned stick hours of 155 with carry out that's around 190 credit hours your flying every roster.
So 155 STICK HOURS might seem like a lower number, however when you convert it to CREDIT HOURS it's closer to 190.
So your either Being disengenuous or you don't understand it.Dont feel bad, most pilots saw 155 and thought, wow it's a smaller number.
2/3 pilot comparisons and MDC are irrelevant points when looking at planned 787 flying.
As others have said, Without night credits your easily doing an extra trip per roster.
Still be a ok gig IMHO. The one benefit of losing all the overtime is there is no financial penalty to go sick if your tired or to "give it a go" if your not 100%. As someone mentioned above if they frown on fatigue then just go sick.
It would be reasonable to expect flying 190 credit hours per roster sickness will be higher anyway.
Makes me laugh how they call it "gamechanging" for an aircraft that every other carriers had in service for 5+ years and wasn't even designed for ultra long haul routes. Give this 5 years max till 777-X arrives then QF will quickly dump Perth and move on to non-stop routes from SYD and MEL.
So your either Being disengenuous or you don't understand it
MDC is 49:30 and the pattern credited hours are 49:37. So these wonderful night credits delivered exactly 7 minutes credit over a 9 day pattern!
The 787 crew are going to be flying PER-MEL-PER for MDC so the exact same credited hours as the A380 but on a a higher rate than the A380.
Once again. The lack of night credits WILL NOT significantly increase the hours flown by crews each bid period.
Last edited by Beer Baron; 29th Apr 2017 at 16:35.
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Note that the B787 rate is Year 4 in the following B787 vs A330 comparison.
Source: LONG HAUL EBA 9 EXPLANATORY DOCUMENT. Check your inbox for an AIPA email on Thursday, 18 June 2015 containing a CLICK HERE link. Alternatively go to the downloads section for Longhaul on the AIPA website.
Source: LONG HAUL EBA 9 EXPLANATORY DOCUMENT. Check your inbox for an AIPA email on Thursday, 18 June 2015 containing a CLICK HERE link. Alternatively go to the downloads section for Longhaul on the AIPA website.
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 30th Apr 2017 at 07:25. Reason: Source added
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No wonder Elaine was so happy...crowing that a substantial saving had been made..
You only get one chance like that and Joyce grabbed it..
Great work CT, nothing like a little fact to change opinion...
More days worked for less money, most of it going to be flown at night..Winning (sarc)
Hope the literature on the damage that circadian rhythm disturbance does is mere hyperbole
I find it interesting that former colleagues in support of the 787 'deal' fail to concede that the 2 pilot and 3 pilot overtime triggers won't apply for any of the routes announced and accounting for the 8 aircraft so far....
You only get one chance like that and Joyce grabbed it..
Great work CT, nothing like a little fact to change opinion...
More days worked for less money, most of it going to be flown at night..Winning (sarc)
Hope the literature on the damage that circadian rhythm disturbance does is mere hyperbole
I find it interesting that former colleagues in support of the 787 'deal' fail to concede that the 2 pilot and 3 pilot overtime triggers won't apply for any of the routes announced and accounting for the 8 aircraft so far....
The 787 deal was voted on and a substantial majority voted "yes". A small minority may take a loss in overtime but most pilots with less than twenty five years service are looking at the future after years of stagnation. Wait and see whom bids for and is awarded the current and future vacancies. It will speak volumes for how the vast majority view the offer for promotion and expansion. Yes that word expansion, lost for the last decade and now finally on the horizon again. The glass is half full and filling!
The 787 deal was voted on and a substantial majority voted "yes". A small minority may take a loss in overtime but most pilots with less than twenty five years service are looking at the future after years of stagnation. Wait and see whom bids for and is awarded the current and future vacancies. It will speak volumes for how the vast majority view the offer for promotion and expansion. Yes that word expansion, lost for the last decade and now finally on the horizon again. The glass is half full and filling!
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Emirates will provide an all-A380 service from Melbourne when it upgrades its third daily flight from the Australian city from a Boeing 777-300ER to an A380 next year.
The move will add 945 seats per week to the Australian city from March 25, 2018, representing a 10 percent increase in capacity, the airline said in a statement.
This means Emirates customers can enjoy even more A380 to A380 connections via its hub in Dubai to 18 points in the UK and Europe, it added.
Emirates says Melbourne to become all-A380 route - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com
The move will add 945 seats per week to the Australian city from March 25, 2018, representing a 10 percent increase in capacity, the airline said in a statement.
This means Emirates customers can enjoy even more A380 to A380 connections via its hub in Dubai to 18 points in the UK and Europe, it added.
Emirates says Melbourne to become all-A380 route - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com
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With all the above it is important to consider the flying the aircraft actually does. It is true, that an "apples with apples" is nearly impossible, given the range limitations of the A330, it was never going the sectors Qantas appears to want to do with the B787.
Tickets on sale for first non-stop Perth to London flight
Looking at the cost curves above, I can be persuaded that the company always wanted to do predominately ULH style flying with the 787. There will be some scraps of <14 TOD & this appears to have been the "sweetner" used to convince pilots it was a good deal.
In a nutshell, many probably considered doing current A330 style flying at a higher rate as a good deal, the reality is that there won't be much, it will be more like the B747/A380. That is a better comparison, scaled for the size of the aircraft.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce yesterday told The West Australian flights from Perth to Berlin, Rome and Paris were the next nonstop routes on the airline’s radar.
Looking at the cost curves above, I can be persuaded that the company always wanted to do predominately ULH style flying with the 787. There will be some scraps of <14 TOD & this appears to have been the "sweetner" used to convince pilots it was a good deal.
In a nutshell, many probably considered doing current A330 style flying at a higher rate as a good deal, the reality is that there won't be much, it will be more like the B747/A380. That is a better comparison, scaled for the size of the aircraft.
I think we can agree that if the 787 flys purely ULR routes then you'd work more hours. If it flew purely Asia/regional routes then you'd work less. If it does a mix then it seems to be line ball. So it comes down to what you expect the 787 flying mix to be.
Yes the initial routes (except PER-MEL) are ULR and some of the suggested future routes are too. (BNE-LAX-JFK is a hot favourite for aircraft 5 and 6 but that is an example of a route where night credits won't play into it as these patterns are determined by MDC, so 787 pilots would fly less hours). But the contract was negotiated for an aircraft that will likely be in the fleet for about 25 years. Over time it is almost certain to takeover the majority the Asian/regional flying currently flown by the A330. The oldest 330's must be approaching 15years old and we don't have any NEO's or 350's on order so it's fairly clear to see the 787 will end up flying those routes.
That is why I believe the contract will prove to be a good one with the long term most likely mix of flying being a split of ULR and Asia/regional flying. You can't just look at the announced flying for the first 4 aircraft when there is every chance we could end up with 50+
Yes the initial routes (except PER-MEL) are ULR and some of the suggested future routes are too. (BNE-LAX-JFK is a hot favourite for aircraft 5 and 6 but that is an example of a route where night credits won't play into it as these patterns are determined by MDC, so 787 pilots would fly less hours). But the contract was negotiated for an aircraft that will likely be in the fleet for about 25 years. Over time it is almost certain to takeover the majority the Asian/regional flying currently flown by the A330. The oldest 330's must be approaching 15years old and we don't have any NEO's or 350's on order so it's fairly clear to see the 787 will end up flying those routes.
That is why I believe the contract will prove to be a good one with the long term most likely mix of flying being a split of ULR and Asia/regional flying. You can't just look at the announced flying for the first 4 aircraft when there is every chance we could end up with 50+
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One thing to remember when comparing the tables that AIPA provided is they all compare current A330 year 12 rates to "current" B787 year four rates!
(Which nobody will be on for over four years
)
(Which nobody will be on for over four years
)
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Correct Tankengine, which is why I highlighted the figure in the first image.
Every line pilot goes who goes to the B787 starts on year 1 regardless of years of company service. This is also for promotion, it is years of service in category.
As a comparison of 4th year pay:Bottom line, this "Years in Category on Type" system effectively (as first inflicted on SH) results in a cumulative 3.7% reduction in earnings to get to 4th year compared to the years of service system.
Every line pilot goes who goes to the B787 starts on year 1 regardless of years of company service. This is also for promotion, it is years of service in category.
As a comparison of 4th year pay:
- Year 1 93%
- Year 2 95%
- Year 3 97.5%
- Year 4 100%
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 30th Apr 2017 at 07:36.
So What Though? All these "facts" are kinda irrelevant, yes? The EBA is done, dusted and and in effect. You blokes are right, its not as good as the A380, but can we move on please. The past is exactly that. If you like I'll give some applause before I go to bed tonight, will that suffice?
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The facts may be *irrelevant* to you personally, but are absolutely crucial to those who have to decide if they want to fly it, this isn't a pissing contest with the 380. Rostering, style of flying & how many days long you are away are still a mystery given the aircraft hasn't yet been delivered, yet a decision to choose flying it closes soon.
This discussion is an exploration of possibilities about what may happen in the future to those who have to decide to stay where they are or choose to fly it. If you don't like the discussion because it isn't relevant to you, there are hundreds of other threads to read...
Fair enough. It's extremely relevant to me. What now of my thoughts?
The point is, you know the rules. They are black and white in front of you, as you have posted on Pprune. You cant change them. That is democracy.
Your bid onto type is yours. The facts will not change. Go ahead and hate them. Fair enough. If you hate them enough, you won't bid.
The point is, you know the rules. They are black and white in front of you, as you have posted on Pprune. You cant change them. That is democracy.
Your bid onto type is yours. The facts will not change. Go ahead and hate them. Fair enough. If you hate them enough, you won't bid.
Last edited by Fatguyinalittlecoat; 30th Apr 2017 at 10:38.
Does any other airline in the world have these unrealistic outdated night credit thingys that doesn't let an airline work its crews how they want?
One very easy solution guys, just don't elect to fly the 787.
morno
One very easy solution guys, just don't elect to fly the 787.
morno
Yes. I can think of three in the U.S. off the top of my head. Short haul and long haul. The credit exists to compensate crew for screwing up their circadian rhythm. As it should be in any good contract.
As an aside - I don't understand (from a consumers point of view) why Joyce believes that PER - LHR will be attractive to passengers from the East coast. Singapore Airlines has a 32/18 inch economy seat from both MEL and SYD. The total trip is around 47 hours block, with an easy connection in one of the worlds best airports (if you're stuck in an airport).
Apart from the opportunity to lisp the words "game changer" again, and the free advertising, I don't see the advantage.
Of course the 'game changer'line is PR rhetoric. Anything to not talk about them Y seats - which i reckon is going to be a big problem.
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Night credits or similar came about from a NASA study of the ill effects of night flying and circadian disrhythmia. As mentioned in a prior post most US carriers have this as do most British airlines in their FTLs.
Sickness rates and fatigue were much higher in crews that flew more at night, therefore a loading was put on night flying to acknowledge that it was more taxing to fly through the night than during the day.
It was an early stage FRMS. You don't get paid any more which is a popular misconception.
Modern research has proven that loss of sleep and in particular jetlag is even worse for the body than the original NASA data. In one research paper it's been proven to alter your genes. https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ts-genes-study
The rates of cancer, stoke, heart attack and disease are exponentially higher.
Of course middle eastern carriers don't strictly abide by these principles. This seems to be the only argument and comparison people make. But Australia doesn't allow multiple wives, chop off people's hands for stealing and our CEO doesn't control Sydney Airport, CASA and Qantas similtaneously either. Last I checked Australia doesn't abide by Sharia law.
Won't stop pilots making a comparison in their own race to the bottom.
The 787 will fly at least one extra ULH pattern every roster till you retire.
Given most pilots from the Middle East constantly complain of exhaustion, is that a comparison pilots want to aspire too?
Sickness rates and fatigue were much higher in crews that flew more at night, therefore a loading was put on night flying to acknowledge that it was more taxing to fly through the night than during the day.
It was an early stage FRMS. You don't get paid any more which is a popular misconception.
Modern research has proven that loss of sleep and in particular jetlag is even worse for the body than the original NASA data. In one research paper it's been proven to alter your genes. https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ts-genes-study
The rates of cancer, stoke, heart attack and disease are exponentially higher.
Of course middle eastern carriers don't strictly abide by these principles. This seems to be the only argument and comparison people make. But Australia doesn't allow multiple wives, chop off people's hands for stealing and our CEO doesn't control Sydney Airport, CASA and Qantas similtaneously either. Last I checked Australia doesn't abide by Sharia law.
Won't stop pilots making a comparison in their own race to the bottom.
The 787 will fly at least one extra ULH pattern every roster till you retire.
Given most pilots from the Middle East constantly complain of exhaustion, is that a comparison pilots want to aspire too?