Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Melbourne Air Traffic Control

Old 30th Sep 2019, 09:44
  #461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Posts: 229
About 10 days ago we were stuck with extended holding with a wind of 040/10. An enquiry was made as to the availability of landing on Rwy 09 with the response being that the flow was fixed for the next few hours. To be sort of fair it was a busy Friday evening and the northerly wind was forecast to increase.
What are the real reasons for not using RWY 09?

Also, I can’t believe the taxiway works are not 24hrs a day, seven days a week. This is a major road block at the moment for pilots and controllers alike.
clark y is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2019, 12:44
  #462 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 6
Posts: 647
Same again tonight.
Berealgetreal is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:13
  #463 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: YMML
Posts: 1,695
clark y, I'm not sure what advantage you think would be gained by you using R09 when everyone else is using R16. It doesn't create an additional landing slot so there's no advantage to the overall sequence meaning your landing time will remain the same. You won't be given a better landing time because it would mean pushing everyone else back a slot which isn't fair. You very definitely wouldn't suddenly jump forward in the landing sequence. If there was some advantage to the overall sequence it would be a different mater.
le Pingouin is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2019, 15:55
  #464 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1
ML has to be the most painful place to fly into on the face of the earth. I dont know what the rules and policies are that create this issue, but something has to give. CAVOK, **** all wind, min speed, 250 on descent hold at Lizzy.

GDP needs to go in the bin too. LST-MEL. Sit on the ground waiting for your slot time, meet it, take off, climbing through 8000 ft "min speed, time at Waren X + 20 mins". If you knew that early I had 20 minutes holding, why the F did you not adjust my COBT?! Its a 40 minute flight!

Honestly it'd be faster rowing a canoe.
das Uber Soldat is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2019, 22:50
  #465 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 6
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
ML has to be the most painful place to fly into on the face of the earth. I dont know what the rules and policies are that create this issue, but something has to give. CAVOK, **** all wind, min speed, 250 on descent hold at Lizzy.

GDP needs to go in the bin too. LST-MEL. Sit on the ground waiting for your slot time, meet it, take off, climbing through 8000 ft "min speed, time at Waren X + 20 mins". If you knew that early I had 20 minutes holding, why the F did you not adjust my COBT?! Its a 40 minute flight!

Honestly it'd be faster rowing a canoe.
Gold.

I just want to have a push back without re doing the figures for a different runway. One day someone’s going to get hung for missing a step in the runway change.

I’m certain it’s the system and not the workers at the coal face but I doubt people (airlines included) realise the risks associated with incessant runway and ATIS changes.

Coming in the other night from Sydney listening to the ARBEY this speed up slow down I thought “this has to be one of the biggest contributors to fatigue in flight I can think of”. Next it was us, on decent heads down trying to make the box give us the numbers, awful. Heads need to be up but we had no option.
Berealgetreal is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2019, 22:54
  #466 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,549
Sweating formerly public infrastructure is an Australian specialty.

Much more profitable to build carparks and shops.

Genius foresight that allowed the game of mates to sell infrastructure with no requirement for it to ever be updated.

Melbourne Airport has had a "plan" for another runway for at least thirty years..
Rated De is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 00:04
  #467 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere on the Australian Coast
Posts: 868
Next it was us, on decent heads down trying to make the box give us the numbers, awful. Heads need to be up but we had no option.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if every inbound aircraft with a WENDY, ARBEY, WAREN or LIZZI time simply replied ‘Unable. Require vectors’.
DirectAnywhere is online now  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 00:10
  #468 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
ML has to be the most painful place to fly into on the face of the earth. I dont know what the rules and policies are that create this issue, but something has to give. CAVOK, **** all wind, min speed, 250 on descent hold at Lizzy.

GDP needs to go in the bin too. LST-MEL. Sit on the ground waiting for your slot time, meet it, take off, climbing through 8000 ft "min speed, time at Waren X + 20 mins". If you knew that early I had 20 minutes holding, why the F did you not adjust my COBT?! Its a 40 minute flight!

Honestly it'd be faster rowing a canoe.
We had exactly the same scenario from Canberra. (apart from the canoe not being a valid alternative for us )
Delayed on the ground and as soon as we were handed off to centre, “minimum speed, 21 minute delay into Melbourne”.
The entire COBT program is a farce.
The Bullwinkle is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 00:49
  #469 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
I just want to have a push back without re doing the figures for a different runway. One day someone’s going to get hung for missing a step in the runway change.
Malindo did (27 to 34... "back to" 27).
The carpet was promptly lifted to have it swept under.
TimmyTee is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 00:52
  #470 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 48
Currently, when 16 is in action and CAVOK conditions, departure gaps are routinely being missed which sees guys and girls on final at 1800' agl being cleared to land, while plenty wait at the holding points..
TimmyTee is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 00:54
  #471 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Lost in Space
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post

Greenies have caused their their share of issues around the place but I can’t see their hand in the current YMML mess.
Current issues are the collateral damage being alluded to.
The hurdles created by lobbyists to prevent infrastructure upgrades are a large part of mess we are living. The bureaucracy is created by people. ATC are like Flight Crew, and are the meat in what is an absolute excrement sandwich of epic proportion. The solution to this is unpalatable to so many “vested” interests that want both am airport to escape via AND no noise pollution, carbon pollution, fauna and flora pollution etc etc...... and also be politically attractive to the most influential voting demographic.

To be clear, it is not just airports. Look around you every day. Roads, rail, base load power. We are living in an ecosystem that restricts productivity, efficiency and stymies economic growth.

Thanks to the swinging votie in this country and the greens achieving a following based on poor assumption of policy, we find ourselves where we are today. In economic and infrastructure limbo.

”votie” was a typographical error that actually works in this context. So I’ll leave it.
t_cas is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 02:43
  #472 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Posts: 229
Le Pingouin, the day of our issues it was RWY 34 in use with no high speed taxiway. I know departures off RWY 09 could not be done as taxiway E is required form vacating RWY 34, but why are landings on RWY 09 not done? Why not LAHSO 34/09? I did read somewhere previously that the tower can’t do it because of the tower location and set up. A large percentage of operators would benefit.

As for a RWY16 and RWY09sequence, I would have thought 09 arrivals would be very efficient with a roll through to Q taxiway and a large percentage blasting off RWY 16 at taxiway E.
clark y is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 03:11
  #473 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 119
Whilst we are “sledging the system” here, how’s about Adelaide?

We call ready for a departure off 23, and there’s a 737 on a 6 mile final....no reply, and then they get cleared to land. (With no departure right before us either so it’s not like it’s a departure separation issue). This has happened multiple times in the last 6 months. At least Melbourne churn you out with 3 mile separation a fair amount of the time.
Flava Saver is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 09:10
  #474 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SE England
Posts: 554
You guys REALLY need to take the time to visit your local ATC unit. I guarantee there will be answers to each of these issues (not Oz an ATCO, so I can only guess). Whichever part of the world you’re in ATC just want you off their frequency as quickly as possible so you’re not delayed for their benefit.
Dan Dare is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 09:12
  #475 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 140
You guys should come fly in SE Asia, you have no clue what bad ATC is like. I can’t wait to fly back in Oz.
AviatoR21 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 09:18
  #476 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: VHHH
Posts: 8
Bleat away all you like about this and that and the other being the myriad reasons why you had a bad day.

But please don't infer or outright state that this is due to go-slow or industrial action by ATC. It isn't.

And frankly it is offensive to ATC's when they are stuck in the same impossible and frustrating position that most of you professional pilots are.
DROPS is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 10:04
  #477 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 63
Posts: 153
An Ethiopian marathon runner just ran 2:01 for 42 km in the Berlin Marathon. Perhaps we should all take up running. It would be quicker. The stupidity and concrete like immobility of Airservices is not funny anymore. I recently had a ground hold of 40 minutes CBR-MEL only to get airborne to find 45 minutes holding at Bulla. Reason? 6 knots tailwind on RWY 27. Its not funny anymore. It’s not even beyond a joke. It’s a national scandal.
The only way anything will change is when the general public becomes aware of what a debacle it is. Sadly, they assume somebody knows what they are doing.
George Glass is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 10:29
  #478 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,607
Originally Posted by AviatoR21 View Post
You guys should come fly in SE Asia, you have no clue what bad ATC is like. I can’t wait to fly back in Oz.
Oh god yes! I think there’s an Australian controller at Hong Kong (before I continue, HKG ATC is some of the best around here), he was on ground the other day, and geez it made me miss Australian ATC. There might be some downfalls, but at least I didn’t have to make all stations calls as I pass through Australian airspace, because of the standard of infrastructure and skill of ATC like when you passed through Myanmar for a while there.
morno is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 10:35
  #479 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Block 49
Posts: 37
Visits aplenty - depressing really!

Originally Posted by Dan Dare View Post
You guys REALLY need to take the time to visit your local ATC unit. I guarantee there will be answers to each of these issues (not Oz an ATCO, so I can only guess). Whichever part of the world you’re in ATC just want you off their frequency as quickly as possible so you’re not delayed for their benefit.
I agree that ATC generally wants to process traffic SAFELY and EXPEDITIOUSLY.
So why the hell does Australian ATC make it so bloody complicated? It is not as though Australia has a lot of traffic; abominable weather; challenging terrain, etc.
What I have found over many, many years of being in this worldly game, is that Australian ATC is constantly stymied by all manner of negative-resulting assessments. The rest of the world "makes it happen"; Aust ATC makes a science of "why it can't happen". Different mind-set, different rules-set - however, the result is the same in Australia.
As a suggestion: all ATCs' KPIs should be linked to traffic efficiency, and without caveats - a flight takes either a COBT or airborne delay, ALL ATCs KPIs take a percentile hit. I am sure that will have their collective minds focused on safe, expeditious and EFFICIENT traffic management. And, do not get me started with traffic holding fuel and who pays for it, but who should pay for it when traffic holding invoked.
Weapons Grade is online now  
Old 1st Oct 2019, 12:38
  #480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In da Big Smoke
Posts: 2,354
You guys REALLY need to take the time to visit your local ATC unit. I guarantee there will be answers to each of these issues (not Oz an ATCO, so I can only guess). Whichever part of the world you’re in ATC just want you off their frequency as quickly as possible so you’re not delayed for their benefit.
The issue has never been the local ATC it's ultimately CASA's rules. If those same rules were applied somewhere like the USA or Europe aviation would grind to a halt. The only reason that aviation works here is that there is virtually no weather 90% of the time and low traffic density by a world standard.

Combined with that is the real lack of infrastructure and competition in the airport space. Australia will never see real economic growth in Aviation as it will be stifled by the lack of airports.
This extends to government. If a billionaire wanted to build a second Melbourne Airport the government would shoot it down with red tape long before the first sod is turned.
neville_nobody is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.