457 visa FOs started at QantasLink

[Out_Bush]

Slight topic drift.

Another visa issue is within the GA industry. I know there are some so called "backpackers" working as pilots. These pilots have gained their CASA CPLs in Australia and do not have the right to work here after their student visas expire. The "loophole" is to apply for a working holiday visa (417/462), so that they are have the rights to work. What's wrong with that I hear some say? But they have a working visa right? Well as a 417/462 visa holder:

- must be a genuine visitor who wants to have a holiday in Australia
- it enables young travellers to have an extended holiday and earn money through short-term employment.

Key word is "extended holiday", not make a living in Australia working for more than 6 months with any employer because they are a BACKPACKER. To be eligible for this visa they are meant to travel the country as a tourist, according to the department of immigration.

How many CPL holders have done it tough? Waiting it out for a start? It just bugs me that this is even happening at the bottom of the barrel. There are already plenty of CPL holders out there will to go through GA, not to mention sausage factories pumping out more pilots via this ridiculous fee-help scheme.

Understandable if they gain the rights to work with a defacto visa BEFORE they start flying, but there shouldn't be a back way via the working holiday visa. I know of a pilot who has no manage to stay in the country indefinitely initially through the 417/462 visa at the GA level.

As for those Aussies working overseas, the majority would be working in a country that employs expats because their own qualified citizens wouldn't be able to fill the positions, OR, these pilots have American/European heritage (dual passports or though parents and grandparents).

[pacman3]

I don't see the fuss about the visa issues how many ozi pilots are working overseas

[Band a Lot]

Out Bush, you must have stumbbled across about the only case of this in relation to a pilot.

I think I know the full story. My guess a love story that started whilst an Australian was in another country with reciprocal "Work Holiday Visa". She met this guy (now a pilot) shortly before the end of her WHV in X country, they want to continue being together but she must return to Australia.

He then applies for a Student Visa in Australia to do CPL and can legally work 20 hrs a week. At the end of CPL and Student Visa about to expire, they still have not raised the $7,000 to apply for a Partner Visa.

WHV visa is cheap and then couple still get to live in the same country, so they apply and are granted, working "Bush" can increase the WHV by a year. So the couple now have up to 2 years to save the +$10,000 required to live together on a permanent basis.

The requirements of meeting the Partner Visa either married or defacto are very tough and require living together for 12 months. So the above case is often used.

It is very sad that an Australian Citizen fell in love with a pilot, for you - but to get multiple employers (none more than 6 months) he must be a hell of a new CPL guy!!!

[Out_Bush]

Close but not quite. The order of events are as follows:

Gains CPL on student visa
Works on a WHV as a pilot
Then meets partner after a decent stint as a pilot

The loophole with the 6 month restriction for any employer is that if it is casual, it does not apply.

[Band a Lot]

"The loophole with the 6 month restriction for any employer is that if it is casual, it does not apply."

Incorrect info here - it is both the employer and employee to know the rules of engagement (employment). Under no circumstance can a WHV holder work more than 6 months for the same employer, not even can a waiver be issued for this.

Still seems a one of event. Not to mention a fresh CPL on a temp visa getting a start so fast, I know guys wait years (missing a few facts I think).

My friends go to places like Hawaii for flying lessons at a much cheaper rate than here in AU.

[Out_Bush]

Incorrect info here - it is both the employer and employee to know the rules of engagement (employment). Under no circumstance can a WHV holder work more than 6 months for the same employer, not even can a waiver be issued for this.

Now, I'm not saying you are wrong but I have seen this happen first hand of a pilot working for 12 months or so on a WHV. So either it is a loophole or the employer had employed an employee on the went visa. Said pilot has now moved onto bigger and better things back home.

But I do agree with you and know of a few Aussie pilots waiting 12 months plus for an interview and position.

[tail wheel]

Working in Australia - six months with one employer

If you hold a Working Holiday (subclass 417) or Work and Holiday (subclass 462) visa, the main purpose of your visit must be for an extended holiday. You can do any kind of work over the course of your 12 month stay in Australia, however the conditions of your visa limit you to a maximum period of six months work with any one employer, unless you've been given permission by the Department of Immigration and Border Protection to work longer.

First Working Holiday visa:

No, a Student Visa can not be "converted" into a WHV within Australia:

You must be outside Australia when you apply for your first Working Holiday visa and when the visa is decided.

[Band a Lot]

I think not applicable to extend unless he applied a Partner Visa? WHV is an offshore application 10 days in Bali is long enough to apply and be granted (seems they removed the express 48 hr option).

Extending the work limitation
Requests to extend the employment period beyond six months are only granted inexceptional circumstances. An extension may be allowed for a very short periodof time (less than one month) and only if there is very strong justification togrant it.

Exceptional circumstances must be extraordinary andunforeseeable, and relate to an Australian permanent resident, citizen orbusiness.

Exceptional circumstances might include:

•Remaining in your current job for a very short time (less than one month) asyou are critical to the completion of a specialised project that hasunexpectedly gone over time. This generally only relates to highly skilledactivities.
Example: A lawyer in the middle of a trial.
•Performing disaster recovery work following a major disaster.
Example: Clean-up, re-building or emergency management activities following amajor flood.

I have no problemwith this guy doing his CPL here on a student visa, nor do I think anyone has an issue with him paying to fly in Australia! During this he is permitted to do any type of work and be paid not less than the award, for not more than 20 hrs a week.
Depending on what field he does this paid work in will depend on who objects and is offended.

Like wise if same guy then after a brief OS trip, obtains a Work Holiday Visa depending on the field he decides to work will depend on objections in this case the offended group will be pilots - but the fact is he is completely legal for up to 6 months at same employer.

If prior to the 6 months a partner visa application has not been lodged (12+ month process time) and this WHV holder is still working for the same employer the offended group/s of people rapidly grows and said worker is illegal and both worker and employer should face the penalties as applicable.

Anyone that suspects any visa abuse including the 2 cases here should report it to DIBP because if it does get abused it makes it much harder for future genuine applications.

[StudentInDebt]

If you're sure of your facts Out Bush here's how you can report it

How do I report migration fraud?

​If you suspect someone of migration fraud and want to tell us about it, you can:

telephone the Immigration Dob-in Service on 1800 009 623—if you need help with your English we can get an interpreter
fill out the Immigration Dob-in Service Online Report
fax your report to 1800 009 849
post your report to:
Information Collection Unit
Department of Border Protection
GPO Box 241
Melbourne VIC 3001
go to any Australian office of the department and make a report in person.

Please let us know how you get on.

[Band a Lot]

No need to be sure only suspect - DIBP are quite professional about it, I have only heard that they cross check government departments like ATO first, then check bank deposits. Often the accused are cleared by this time and nobody even know about the report.

Yes I also would encourage to report, but I don't think the reporter gets feed back?

[JAMUP]

Exapats

457 Visa has the same right as a PR holder and Qantas Link flies domestic where Aus passport is not needed.

In this case these Two SA pilots must be having Type with more than 1000 hours where they are lucrative for any employer to hire , its true there are more than enough Frozen ATPL holders in Aus looking for jobs and have been applying for QL cadet 1 and 2 programs but unable to land a job, but Type and hours make a massive difference anywhere you go.

I know a Brit was married to a Canadian lived in UK who flew Q400 for for a UK company then Wet leased to an African operator. He based his wife and family in Canada and flew in Mongolia ( commuting ) to build up his hours eventually got his command and moved to Canada on a Spouse visa and joined West Jet. Key there was his hours on type ! This is what young CPL holders lack and will be lacking in future. Untill the operators come up with a solution ( this saves the company lot of training money and adhere to insurance requirements and FOM ) this situation will not change. Thats why p2f has come and marketed so strongly in Asia and the Middle east and Asian carriers train their in house cadets on MPL , Operators cannot wait anymore from the traditional CPL to Type -Line experience.They want Cadets with jet experience to occupy the right hand seat.

Another C208 Amphibian pilot was recruited by a Sea plane company in Australia on a Spouse Visa , he had 800 hours on type in Maldives.
Couple of Philippine pilots on A320 command hours joined Jetstar on Spouse Visas as well.

[Band a Lot]

This is where I got it from.

"Hold and maintain a current Australian or New Zealand passport with access to all Qantas ports."

QantasLink Recruitment: Attention

[Dark Knight]

Standard business sponsors:
To sponsor a worker as a standard business sponsor, you must:

• be a lawfully operating business
• have no relevant adverse information against your business.
• If your business is in Australia, you must also:
• meet training requirements
• demonstrate your commitment to employing local labour
• not engage in discriminatory recruitment practices.

[Dark Knight]

Training requirements:

1. You must show that you have contributed to the training of Australian workers by providing evidence of meeting the training benchmarks. These benchmarks were introduced to ensure that the employment of workers from outside Australia is not seen as an alternative to training Australian workers.
2. To be approved as a standard business sponsor, you must either:
3. meet the training benchmarks if you have traded in Australia for 12 months or more
4. have an auditable plan to meet the training benchmarks if you have been trading in Australia for less than 12 months.
5. If you negotiate a labour agreement, your business will have to meet a similar training requirement as part of the agreement.

[Dark Knight]

Industry training funds:

I

1. ndustry training funds are statutory authorities responsible for providing funding for training of eligible workers in certain industries, such as construction and mining.
2. You should contribute to a fund that operates in the same industry as your business. If your industry does not have an eligible training fund, you can contribute to:
3. a recognised industry body that provides training opportunities for its members, provided they reserve the funds contributed for training
4. a recognised scholarship fund at a university or TAFE college that supports education or training for Australians in the same or a similar industry as your business.

Examples of ways to meet the training benchmarks:

You can show you meet the training benchmarks in relation to your Australian

1. employees by:
2. paying for a formal course of study for your Australian employees
3. funding a scholarship in a formal course of study approved under the Australian Qualifications Framework for your Australian employees
4. employing apprentices, trainees or recent graduates on an ongoing basis in numbers proportionate to the size of the business
5. employing a person who trains your Australian employees
6. paying external providers to deliver training for Australian employees
7. providing on-the-job training that is structured with a timeframe and clearly identified increase in the skills at each stage, and demonstrating all of the following:
8. the learning outcomes of the employee at each stage
9. how the progress of the Australian employee will be monitored and assessed
10. how the program will provide additional and enhanced skills
11. the use of qualified trainers to develop the program and set assessments
12. the number of people participating and their skill and occupation.
13. Expenditure that cannot count towards this benchmark includes expenditure for training that is:
14. delivered on the job, other than on-the-job training that meets the requirements outlined above
15. confined to only one or a few aspects of the businesses broader operations, unless the training is in the primary business activity
16. only done by people who are not Australian citizens or permanent residents
17. only done by people who are principals in the business or their family members
18. only relating to a very low skill level having regard to the characteristic and size of the business
19. wages paid to staff for the time they spend at training.

[Band a Lot]

I think QL pass for training in the following. I have not seen the requirement that other countries have for training Australian for the "position" the foreign worker will be doing. We just require X $'s spent on "training" within the company. That can be Cabin Crew training, Check In staff training anything "training".

1. paying for a formal course of study for your Australian employees
3. employing trainees or recent graduates on an ongoing basis in numbers proportionate to the size of the business
4. employing a person who trains your Australian employees
5. paying external providers to deliver training for Australian employees
6. providing on-the-job training that is structured with a timeframe and clearly identified increase in the skills at each stage, and demonstrating all of the following:
7. the learning outcomes of the employee at each stage
8. how the progress of the Australian employee will be monitored and assessed
9. how the program will provide additional and enhanced skills
10. the use of qualified trainers to develop the program and set assessments
11. the number of people participating and their skill and occupation.
12. Expenditure that cannot count towards this benchmark includes expenditure for training that is:
13. delivered on the job, other than on-the-job training that meets the requirements outlined above
14. confined to only one or a few aspects of the businesses broader operations, unless the training is in the primary business activity
18. wages paid to staff for the time they spend at training

[Dark Knight]

What other countries do is totally irrelevant to this discussion to what happens within Australia; (and a diversionary tactic) we are talking about Australian jobs within Australia.
What happens in other countries is their business under their legislation, laws and rules.

We just require X $'s spent on "training" within the company. That can be Cabin Crew training, Check In staff training anything "training".

No! Misconstrues what is within the legislation and what the Act is all about.

The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled; you cannot just pick a part of the legislation, law or rules applying it in isolation.

[Band a Lot]

Dark Knight, I am not being silly but I have not seen the requirement that training is position relevant. I happy to learn new stuff if you can if you supply where it says position training must be carried out. I only see Australians must get training.

"The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled;"

Other countries clearly say the position filled a citizen must be trained for position work permit issued.

You may wish to know Australia has agreements with other countries in relation to work so it could be relevant.

* meet training requirements
* You must show that you have contributed to the training of Australian workers - employment of workers from outside Australia is not seen as an alternative to training Australian workers.

This is what I mean from Fiji.

the name (s) of the local understudy/counterpart and details of a training programme for the training of a citizen(s) of the Fiji Islands in the work for which the application for a work permit is made;


bold not intended it wont unbold.

[Dark Knight]

The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled

One would think the word `relevant’ (bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand; pertinent) is highly descriptive, accurate and specific particularly when related to the word `positions’ when the positions to be filled is that of pilots including pilots to fly a particular aircraft.
it would certainly be held as such within a court of law.

What other countries do or say is totally irrelevant to what applies under Australian Legislation within Australia; the discussion is about protection of Australian employment and Australians entitlement to this employment.

I, and others, are well aware there are agreements in place with other countries providing work arrangements for non-Australians to work here (NZ is another) however, these all have detailed and specific reasons for these to be in place. They all have specific restrictions, rules and arrangements totally applicable to each and every one of these.

Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

Why would any company train cooks or baggage handlers so they can employ pilots?

Is the training of cooks, baggage handler and counter clerks `relevant’ to pilot requirements?
Many of the cooks, baggage handler and counter clerks are no longer employed by the airlines the work/employees being contracted out.

Again, highly irrelevant.

“457 Visa Obligations:
Sponsor obligations
Sponsorship obligations apply to all sponsors of subclass 457 visa holders. They are in place to ensure that overseas skilled workers are protected from exploitation, and that the subclass 457 visa programme is being used to meet genuine skills shortages, and not to undercut local labour wages and conditions.
Some obligations apply beyond the term of sponsorship approval.
As a sponsor you must:
• cooperate with inspectors
• ensure equivalent terms and conditions of employment
• keep records
• provide records and information to the Minister
• tell us when certain events occur
• ensure the visa holder participates in the nominated occupation, program or activity
• not recover from, transfer or charge certain costs to another person
• pay travel costs to enable sponsored people to leave Australia
• pay costs to remove unlawful non-citizens
• provide training to Australians and permanent residents
• not engage in discriminatory recruitment practices.
• Provide training to Australians and permanent residents

If you are a standard business sponsor and you lawfully operated a business in Australia at the time you were approved as a standard business sponsor (or at the time you had your terms of approval varied). You must contribute to the training of Australians by:
• spending an equivalent of at least two per cent of your payroll in payments to an industry training fund that operates in the same industry as you; or
• spending an equivalent to at least one per cent of your payroll in the provision of training to employees of your business who are Australian citizens or Australian permanent residents.

The obligation begins on the day you are approved as a sponsor. You must meet this obligation in each 12 month period within which you employ a sponsored visa holder (including if the sponsored visa holder is not employed by you for the full twelve months). Where your approval as a standard business sponsor is varied, you must meet the training requirement if you employ one or more primary sponsored persons.”

[Dark Knight]

The Temporary Work (Skilled) visa (subclass 457) allows skilled workers to come to Australia and work for an approved business for up to four years.

You must be sponsored by an approved business. A business can sponsor someone for this visa if they cannot find an Australian citizen or permanent resident to do the skilled work.

You can be in or outside Australia when you lodge your application.
This visa allows you to:
• work in Australia for up to four years
• bring your family to work or study in Australia
• travel in and out of Australia as often as you want.

Before you apply

This is a sponsored visa. Before you can apply for the visa, your employer must:
• become an approved sponsor
• nominate you for a position.
You can apply for this visa at the same time your employer lodges their applications to sponsor and nominate you.

No further stay

You cannot apply for this visa if you already hold another visa that has a ‘No further stay’ condition.

Your passport

You must have a valid passport or other travel document for this visa.

Who could get this visa
To apply you must:
• be nominated to work in an approved occupation on the Skilled Occupation Lists
• meet the skill requirements for the nominated occupation
• meet registration and licensing obligations
• speak vocational English
• have been nominated by an approved business.

Approved occupations

You must work in a skilled occupation that has been approved by the Australian Government.
The list of eligible occupations is available on the Skilled Occupation Lists
Skill requirements
You need to show that you have the skills and experience necessary to work in the nominated occupation. The evidence that you can provide is listed in the Document checklist for visa applicants.
If your nominated occupation is a trade occupation, you might need to do a skills assessment.
If your nominated occupation is 'Project and Program Administrator or Specialist Manager not elsewhere classified', you will need to a skills assessment for migration purposes.

Registration and licensing

If requested by your visa processing case officer, you must provide evidence from the relevant Australian registration or licensing authority that you hold, or will be able to meet, the registration or licensing requirements to work in your nominated occupation.
Your approved sponsor should be able to provide you with the necessary licensing and registration information.

English language proficiency

It is important that you can speak, write and understand a sufficient level of English while you are in Australia. We use the following tests to determine your level of English language proficiency: