457 visa FOs started at QantasLink
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457visa FOs started at QantasLink
42 posts I think ACMS should list what posts are relevant to post "457 visa FOs started at QantasLink"
Simple question not a trick one. when one can not answer, is why they are often over looked for a position, they just don't understand they will never be suitable but believe have a right.
457visa FOs started at QantasLink
42 posts I think ACMS should list what posts are relevant to post "457 visa FOs started at QantasLink"
Simple question not a trick one. when one can not answer, is why they are often over looked for a position, they just don't understand they will never be suitable but believe have a right.
ACMS, the discussion has diverged a bit, but to answer your question I would prefer my kids get preference for a job in this country over someone specifically imported from overseas.
I don't have an issue with anyone who is legally here, whether they have citizenship, right of residency or a spousal visa, because they are residents of this country and therefore, in my opinion, able to compete on the same basis as everyone else.
A company going to a different country with the specific intent of shopping for employees to fill a position back home is an entirely different story and if there are people in this country who can do the job it shouldn't be allowed. It would appear, on face value, that QantasLink specifically went to South Africa to recruit SA Express pilots to fly as first officers in Australia. If this is actually the case then I don't believe it should have happened and the government should not have granted visas to the pilots concerned - no offence to the individuals.
Same applies to another airline that had a habit of importing COO's from the good ole US of A. There are plenty of people in this country that could have filled the role but the government granted a 457 for the people concerned.
I don't have an issue with anyone who is legally here, whether they have citizenship, right of residency or a spousal visa, because they are residents of this country and therefore, in my opinion, able to compete on the same basis as everyone else.
A company going to a different country with the specific intent of shopping for employees to fill a position back home is an entirely different story and if there are people in this country who can do the job it shouldn't be allowed. It would appear, on face value, that QantasLink specifically went to South Africa to recruit SA Express pilots to fly as first officers in Australia. If this is actually the case then I don't believe it should have happened and the government should not have granted visas to the pilots concerned - no offence to the individuals.
Same applies to another airline that had a habit of importing COO's from the good ole US of A. There are plenty of people in this country that could have filled the role but the government granted a 457 for the people concerned.
Yes! I agree with most of what you say.
Other people in here seem happy to see our kids lose out to foreigners for their opportunity or shot at an Airline dream job in their own country.
Sad, just sad.
Other people in here seem happy to see our kids lose out to foreigners for their opportunity or shot at an Airline dream job in their own country.
Sad, just sad.
Moderator
Three pages of posts and no comment that conclusively confirms these alleged QantasLink FOs are here on a Temporary Business (Long Stay) Sub Class 457 Visa?
A 457 Visa is not the only key to Australia's front door. Between 1996-97 and 2014-15 Australia accepted 2.8 million permanent immigrants in the following categories:
Family........................822,079
Skilled.....................1,597,192
Special Eligibility.........347,759
Humanitarian..............259,269
Total.......................2,767,030
Additionally, 5.2 million temporary entries were granted:
Overseas Students....3,904,664
Sub Class 457...........1,286,840
Total........................5,191,504
Despite the protestations of various organisations including the Union movement, Greens etc, only 16.2% of all those who entered Australia with temporary or permanent residential status, entered on a 457 Visa.
Statistically these alleged overseas FOs may very well be permanent immigrants, spouse or partner of skilled workers, spouse/partner of tertiary students or extended family of Australian citizens?
And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia; be paid at or above the remuneration of a similarly qualified Australian pilot doing the same job; pay their own private medical insurance (as they do not have access to Medibank); be competent in English; and pre qualified license requirements with CASA.
A 457 Visa is not the only key to Australia's front door. Between 1996-97 and 2014-15 Australia accepted 2.8 million permanent immigrants in the following categories:
Family........................822,079
Skilled.....................1,597,192
Special Eligibility.........347,759
Humanitarian..............259,269
Total.......................2,767,030
Additionally, 5.2 million temporary entries were granted:
Overseas Students....3,904,664
Sub Class 457...........1,286,840
Total........................5,191,504
Despite the protestations of various organisations including the Union movement, Greens etc, only 16.2% of all those who entered Australia with temporary or permanent residential status, entered on a 457 Visa.
Statistically these alleged overseas FOs may very well be permanent immigrants, spouse or partner of skilled workers, spouse/partner of tertiary students or extended family of Australian citizens?
And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia; be paid at or above the remuneration of a similarly qualified Australian pilot doing the same job; pay their own private medical insurance (as they do not have access to Medibank); be competent in English; and pre qualified license requirements with CASA.
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Tail wheel, almost correct.
"And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia"
All members of the family get the 457 visa, only the primary applicant has to have special skills and meet other requirements. The rest of the family are secondary holders of a 457 visa, the husband or wife (or adult kids) as it maybe have full work rights and can work in skilled or unskilled jobs.
I am not saying that is the case here, but it is certainly possible.
I would like to see more transparency on 457 visas applied for and issued perhaps on a dedicated website. But then I would like the 400% increase in last few years be removed from the Partner Visas fees.
I did see on a QLINK add that minimum requirement was Australian citizenship/passport or a Kiwi with residence - sort of hard to comply on a 457!
"And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia"
All members of the family get the 457 visa, only the primary applicant has to have special skills and meet other requirements. The rest of the family are secondary holders of a 457 visa, the husband or wife (or adult kids) as it maybe have full work rights and can work in skilled or unskilled jobs.
I am not saying that is the case here, but it is certainly possible.
I would like to see more transparency on 457 visas applied for and issued perhaps on a dedicated website. But then I would like the 400% increase in last few years be removed from the Partner Visas fees.
I did see on a QLINK add that minimum requirement was Australian citizenship/passport or a Kiwi with residence - sort of hard to comply on a 457!
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Further more the Australian company must have in place training enabling Australian citizens to improve their skills, upgrade or undertake such training to fill any positions.
The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.
True however, protection of a countries citizens and a country is a primary duty/obligation of Government and via their Government citizens may grant others the privilege of entering their country first giving these aliens permission to do so.
Such permission is incumbent upon these persons entering a country is in accordance with the permissions given and their respect and obedience of the laws and customs of the country.
The same provisions apply to Australians going or attempting to work in an overseas country.
The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.
It is a BIG competitive world out there, accept or adapt
Such permission is incumbent upon these persons entering a country is in accordance with the permissions given and their respect and obedience of the laws and customs of the country.
The same provisions apply to Australians going or attempting to work in an overseas country.
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The Temporary Work (Skilled) (subclass 457) visa is designed to enable employers to address labour shortages by bringing in genuinely skilled workers where they cannot find an appropriately skilled Australian.
or
The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.
I guess it is hard to find if as my wife say's it's a man look. The reason 457 visa's were introduced was for employers particularly remote that could not get staff even when many of the "skills" shortage were on the dole in the city. The number of 457 cooks (not chefs) says it all.
A reason that some Australian applicants are found not satisfactory could be due the large number of personal in the selection process and the small number of feeder companies left. If I ring a director of one of these feeders to the regionals airlines, I don't know how truthful the reference is, if I know the director possible worked for them I will be more likely to get a straight honest answer. Busting bonds or leaving shortly after a type rating a few jobs back, might not go down very well. I guess pprune and FB catch a few out too.
I did search for a master list of Companies able to sponsor 457's it is not available to public sadly.
or
The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.
I guess it is hard to find if as my wife say's it's a man look. The reason 457 visa's were introduced was for employers particularly remote that could not get staff even when many of the "skills" shortage were on the dole in the city. The number of 457 cooks (not chefs) says it all.
A reason that some Australian applicants are found not satisfactory could be due the large number of personal in the selection process and the small number of feeder companies left. If I ring a director of one of these feeders to the regionals airlines, I don't know how truthful the reference is, if I know the director possible worked for them I will be more likely to get a straight honest answer. Busting bonds or leaving shortly after a type rating a few jobs back, might not go down very well. I guess pprune and FB catch a few out too.
I did search for a master list of Companies able to sponsor 457's it is not available to public sadly.
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will the SA guys with experience be promoted out of seniority? That's when things will get very interesting.
Reference to SA and without being unkind, SA is rooted (the SA people will confirm this) and the Whiteman wants out as preference for all jobs is given to others with the living situation having deteriorated such that living there is considered more than unsafe.
The SA's have set up a significant networking system throughout the world and within the many companies around the globe where employment has been obtained. This system is such it advises where employment is available, how to obtain this and all the necessary ways and means of obtaining immigration approvals including the circumvention of any rules as required, etc. It additionally provides all other information re salaries, housing, education, etc, etc.
Where SA's are employed they ensure where possible, infiltrating into management using this knowledge or positions to further assist SA's to leave SA.
Any or all of this may be researched where Google is your friend.
There is more than sufficient evidence to support Australian companies are circumventing the 457 Visa process allowing significant cost savings. Additionally, having an employee under a 457 visa allows the employer to dictate the employment terms with the underlying threat of non compliance meaning withdrawal of employer sponsorship.
It is all very well to debate this issue within PPrune ad infinitum however, unless Aussie pilots recognize they are again (continuing?) to be screwed and make an effort to prevent this, the situation will continue to deteriorate.
Writing, interviewing your local MP is a good start (include all your State Senators) however, a more positive action will be to use your professional association, the AFAP, which has the ways and means to undertake positive action.
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Dark Knight, this part is not correct it was a claim prior to Abbott being elected and no evidence put forward to support it.
There is more than sufficient evidence to support Australian companies are circumventing the 457 Visa process allowing significant cost savings. Additionally, having an employee under a 457 visa allows the employer to dictate the employment terms with the underlying threat of non compliance meaning withdrawal of employer sponsorship.
Why wont bold undo?
There is more than sufficient evidence to support Australian companies are circumventing the 457 Visa process allowing significant cost savings. Additionally, having an employee under a 457 visa allows the employer to dictate the employment terms with the underlying threat of non compliance meaning withdrawal of employer sponsorship.
Why wont bold undo?
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Writing, interviewing your local MP is a good start (include all your State Senators) however, a more positive action will be to use your professional association, the AFAP, which has the ways and means to undertake positive action.
This however could get some transparency that is much needed. After reading the last rant from AFAP on 457's I suggest they need a few facts and figures next time if they can - no wonder it was dismissed at a very least a number (34) know pilots have been employed or something without simply having a unfounded cry.
This however could get some transparency that is much needed. After reading the last rant from AFAP on 457's I suggest they need a few facts and figures next time if they can - no wonder it was dismissed at a very least a number (34) know pilots have been employed or something without simply having a unfounded cry.
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BaL: I can give you a prime example of where this is happening daily in a closely associated workplace. Reading the comments here indicates the 457 Visa system is certainly being circumvented and if researched in the correct places the evidence will be found.
The facts and figures need to come from pilots/members; if they do not give them only ranting on PPrune then little will be achieved.
I trust you noted the comments how the SA fraternity operating?
Should this be correct (I know of others where circumvention is occouring) then pilots should be hammering on the door of their local Member/Senator and the door of the AFAP getting them to uphold the legislation. If they are not then when their jobs are not available they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Whinging without doing anything does seem to be an Australian trait.
I certainly have given my MP/Senator a good heads up which will be followed up and advised the AFAP.
It is your Job!
AFAP on 457's I suggest they need a few facts and figures next time if they can
I trust you noted the comments how the SA fraternity operating?
no wonder it was dismissed at a very least a number (34) know pilots have been employed or something without simply having a unfounded cry
Whinging without doing anything does seem to be an Australian trait.
I certainly have given my MP/Senator a good heads up which will be followed up and advised the AFAP.
It is your Job!
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Off topic but important to know.
I will be honest and often I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system often. Our group being about 850,000 people far more than 4,000 pilot members and trust me that is not enough votes for your MP or Senator to care. 850K across Australia is not enough.
I did indeed see comments on SA fraternity, about the same as any other group operates. I would expect that new Qantas recruits would have similar education, training, back ground and experience to the ones employing them it is human nature to pick what you know.
Often people don't get a job because they think "I deserve it".
I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system because - two Senators offices told me "we need to leave a kid behind" as security deposit for reason to return for my fiancé and kids to visit Australia (we had 2 previous refused)to meet my kids and Australia.
So I know there are problems with the system, but the 457 area is not the main problem being told to leave a kid behind is worse IMO.
I will be honest and often I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system often. Our group being about 850,000 people far more than 4,000 pilot members and trust me that is not enough votes for your MP or Senator to care. 850K across Australia is not enough.
I did indeed see comments on SA fraternity, about the same as any other group operates. I would expect that new Qantas recruits would have similar education, training, back ground and experience to the ones employing them it is human nature to pick what you know.
Often people don't get a job because they think "I deserve it".
I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system because - two Senators offices told me "we need to leave a kid behind" as security deposit for reason to return for my fiancé and kids to visit Australia (we had 2 previous refused)to meet my kids and Australia.
So I know there are problems with the system, but the 457 area is not the main problem being told to leave a kid behind is worse IMO.
It is a BIG competitive world out there, accept or adapt
Many corporate GA operators take advantage of this and employ "experienced" foreign crews on the 457 Visa/ 5 year and one day long leash.
Driving the conditions and opportunities for young locals down the drain.
Driving the conditions and opportunities for young locals down the drain.
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Neville, your post sort of says we are a bit slow here and it takes us time to get experience, we don't have the exposure of international pilots .
So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".
I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.
So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".
I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.
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Ramble it is 4 years, they need to be paid under same conditions and pay as others, if not it is massive simple back pay even after they leave (ask Fairwork).
Conditions can not be driven down - if you have facts REPORT it.
Conditions can not be driven down - if you have facts REPORT it.
Neville, your post sort of says we are a bit slow here and it takes us time to get experience, we don't have the exposure of international pilots .
So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".
I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.
So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".
I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.
The issue is now, as shown by the Skywest exercise, is that the regulator seems to view time on type in isolation. Hence you have the situation where someone comes from a country where jobs are easy to get with say 500 total time and walks into an airline because 300 of that is on type. Meanwhile Australians have no access to that experience. Your average pilot in Australia is not going to be let near a big turboprop with a few hundred hours.
If we do as you say and allow foreigners in it will subsequently destroy flying training and GA in this country as people just won't learn to fly if the chance of getting an airline job is so slim