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Air NZ discriminating against older pilots!

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Air NZ discriminating against older pilots!

Old 10th Jul 2016, 22:44
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Square bear .. I like the "Bull" story.

Somewhat telling of your generation of greed and "screw the rest", (curiously an accusation often levelled toward the gen Y's/gen Me's by the elderly) you;d think there would be enough cows for all to share...

Unfortunately the industry will forever be scared by this sense of entitlement and this of course is part of the problem here.

Offcut ... your onto it .... But 'hey"don't let the facts get in the way of a good yarn

PS: Id be interested to know how much training should be given to "meet the standard". Or when do you say "enough"..?
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 01:42
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I love flying with guys who are counting down to retirement, and quite often say so at flight planning (some even know the number of days). You then know it's going to be an easy, cruisey trip where you all get the job done with little fuss.

Just an observation.
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 05:36
  #23 (permalink)  
atlas12
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What, one accident involving a vehicle which has self driving capabilities intended as a safety measure only? The technology is still in its infancy, give it another decade.

Some of you folk really need to pull your heads out, so to speak. Intentionally delaying retirement to block younger pilots from taking a command? If that isn't trolling, I don't know what is
 
Old 11th Jul 2016, 05:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Seems like the old bull didn't get it up.
Time catches up with everyone.
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 08:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Uber looking for experienced driver. No age limit - but you still must chin bar!
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 11:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, some of what I posted was tongue in cheek, ☺

….and I am the first to agree one needs to pass a check to the required standard, but my post was responding to a suggestion that old is too old, get out of my way, I am coming through (and a distress at extremely bad grammar and spelling that supported that proposition-mediocre is ok, but not extremely bad).

Don't forget that most Captains were First Officers at some time. I flew with some Captains that I could out perform in the Sim (not very many!!) and I now find some right seat guys outperform me (probably many). But the Sim or Endorsement training is just a part of it…online is the bread and butter.

Captaincy is not about being the best pilot, nor just a matter of having time in company. It is not a God given right, nor should it be achieved by kicking someone over the cliff. And as we all know, there are some that will never get there due to lack of ability, management skill or have the wrong personality.

I might not have liked some Captains I flew with, but I sure as hell respected them and the position. From that experience I learnt to give the First Officers I fly with a reason to respect me, just as I respect them.

As I say, my post was a response somewhat tongue in cheek, but I found the following comment completly disrespectable, and undeservedly directed towards older Aircraft Commanders…

…when they have riden (sic) the pigs back most of their careers….
BTW, I am not really that old, so I am not spending your inheritance ….just yet!!

Last edited by Square Bear; 11th Jul 2016 at 11:34.
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 12:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the day, winning was encouraged over accepting loss. Back in the day, UE was recognised as intellectual capacity. NCEA wtf is that and how do you define 'achievement' as an employer? It will be a cold day in hell before I allow my kids to be encouraged to underachieve. There is a whole culture of 'dumbing down' of qualifications and experience in nz as it's seen to be the 'pc' thing do do. I'm impartial to this argument, I'm just saying things aren't how they used to be, rather, how they should be. I could do a tertiary degree in HR in a few years, does that qualify me to decide who or who can't command a commercial airliner? I'm not taking sides on this, It will be balanced between those who flame me and support my comments but that's a reflection of today's society, business environment and employment market
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 18:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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Concerning the training,I applied with AirNz(2nd time)when the Airbus first arrived on the property,I'd already had 10+ years in the left seat on the bus,and thought that maybe this would be the edge into the programme.They were not impressed and offered me a S/O position,fair enough I said,and thanked them for the tea and ginger nuts.

I'm not sure how ANZ does their Airbus training(someone can elaborate)but Ive worked several contracts where it was strictly straight out of the Airbus manual,word for word,no deviation,except for some very minors details based on the aircrafts geographic base.I've worked for several(3)operations whereby the Airbus manual has been butchered to pieces and a programme devised for the very basic indoc.Both work!

My point,when it comes to training,programmes are developed to suit the airline and its operation.The experience depth of its pilots is where it needs to be geared too.A pilot coming out of the Boeing with a huge experience base,does not need to have the Airbus standard shoved up their rears to get through the programme,information overload is an issue here,a butchered version seems to get most through,whereas abnitio students etc generally do better at the book work,side of things.I have just on 20 years on this A/C,319-330,I'm always having to look something up,it never ends.This type of info can be garnished at a later date,not in initial training.

The phrase"what the bloody heck is it doing now"is commonly used by Airbus pilots. Obviously the longer you are on the A/C the easier it gets.Im not advocating individual programs for individual pilots,far from it,but Airbus "standard" has a history of jamming so much information down ones throat in the very beginning,I've found that to be not nessacery.In ANZs infancy with the Bus,the programme may have been as such,over the years they would have learned what was nessacery and what was not,the streamlining of a training programme makes all the difference.

No favours,no extra required training(some will never get it) no wasted sim sessions,Just a "tidy" indoc programme that deals with the basics,to fly and manage this Bus efficiently.Pixie fairies and the bottom of the garden,maybe?, there are always improvements to any programme,seems a shame to waste talent.Those that get through the programme easily and efficiently ,kudos to you,it just made it easier.

NB...I'm not defending the actions of those in the article,just merely commenting on the broader issues of training on the Bus
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 23:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atlas12 View Post
The sooner we take pilots out of the flight deck the sooner we lower the fatality rate even more, since most aviation accidents are caused by human error.
What you don't know, though, is how many accidents are averted through human intervention.
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Old 11th Jul 2016, 23:57
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Hey atlas12, can you explain how the automatics and pilot-less cockpit would have operated and "managed" the event before splash down into the Hudson?
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Old 12th Jul 2016, 00:39
  #31 (permalink)  
atlas12
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Originally Posted by ratpoison View Post
Hey atlas12, can you explain how the automatics and pilot-less cockpit would have operated and "managed" the event before splash down into the Hudson?
Did you miss the part where I said the technology wasn't quite there yet?
 
Old 12th Jul 2016, 15:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Porirua
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.........
Quote"But an Air NZ pilot in his 50s believes the A320 training is insufficient, requiring only about 20 hours of actual flying compared to around 100 hours for his initial command training.

"Boeing and Airbus are completely poles part in technology, their logic. You've got to go right back to basics and re-learn all over again.

"For a guy who has flown a Boeing for 30-plus years, there's certain habits formed and it's difficult to pick up the new logic."

The pilot believed Air NZ had used the training as a way of "weeding out" older staff.

"Some instructors are brilliant, one in particular is absolutely diabolical. All they have to do is bring out the bad cop and you're sure to have issues.

"These guys aren't being given the chance to make the grade, they're not being given the training. It's a culling for sure."..............end quote





This wouldn't be you,would it Sid???
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 00:28
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Go for it John. We need your callibur up the front and your maturity with years of experience.
You have so much more to offer than those 20 something year old pimply faced, big ego jet heads. All of those halfwits dont even have a degree in any dicipline with their piddling 100 hrs T.T. What a bloody joke aviation is today !

Atleast the great USA has decent recruitment standards. Just to get an interview a pilot must have a minimum of 1500 hrs T.T. , a full ATPL, a degree in any dicipline, M.E. CIR.

Thank God, for the FAA. lts a real shame that other Airlines around the world, dont have the same high standards.
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 01:12
  #34 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
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The sooner we take pilots out of the flight deck the sooner we lower the fatality rate even more, since most aviation accidents are caused by human error. The technology isn't quite there yet but it isn't far off. Once driver less cars are the norm aircraft are sure to follow. I am okay with that.

Atlas - PPRuNe already has many threads discussing the 'Pilotless Aircraft', a search will find them. There are a dozen reasons why the pilotless aircraft won't happen within the next fifty years, mainly technical, but in todays current security climate the prospect of a group of suicidal terrorists taking over any ATC unit, anywhere, doen't bear thinking about, the carnage they could cause would be in biblical proportions.


Teslar have so far had two serious accidents with their driverless cars.
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 02:01
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Tesla..
Note they refer to the car control software as 'beta' and is only meant to be used on major highways with good lane markings... and the driver is meant to have hands on the steering wheel at all times (which while they detect it, they dont enforce)

I think they've also said that given the miles the cars have travelled the accident rate is well below that of a human driver.

But of course its new and different so any issues will make news.

At least we will get some driverless trains in Sydney in 2019 with the opening of the Sydney Metro Northwest
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 04:59
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Go for it John. We need your callibur up the front and your maturity with years of experience.
You have so much more to offer than those 20 something year old pimply faced, big ego jet heads. All of those halfwits dont even have a degree in any dicipline with their piddling 100 hrs T.T. What a bloody joke aviation is today !

Atleast the great USA has decent recruitment standards. Just to get an interview a pilot must have a minimum of 1500 hrs T.T. , a full ATPL, a degree in any dicipline, M.E. CIR.

Thank God, for the FAA. lts a real shame that other Airlines around the world, dont have the same high standards.
You are aware that current entry level pilots at Air New Zealand have in the region of 3000 to 5000 hours and sometimes more than that? With the rate of progression the airline has, probably closer to 10,000 hours for a first Jet Command.


Might I suggest some research next time before shooting your mouth off.
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 05:43
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Water Wings View Post
You are aware that current entry level pilots at Air New Zealand have in the region of 3000 to 5000 hours and sometimes more than that? With the rate of progression the airline has, probably closer to 10,000 hours for a first Jet Command.


Might I suggest some research next time before shooting your mouth off.
Black Belt is clearly a troll WW.

Have a look at his previous posts. It won't take long, there's not that many, but all of the same genre.

Exactly what a good ol boy, redneck septic is doing on the Australia/NZ forum is anyone's guess.
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 06:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Thank God, for the FAA. lts a real shame that other Airlines around the world, dont have the same high standards.
Agreed, if only everywhere banned over 65 pilots, then the rest of us (including those with thousands of hours, not just the so called pimply faced kids)who have no opportunities would maybe get a small glimmer of hope of moving to the left seat....you know, after those who've pretty much had progression handed to them on a platter, the benefit of the increasing retirement ages, the increase in property values etc etc are forced to bugger off. We certainly wouldn't miss you.

Such a shame you don't recognize that those you claim aren't ready are the one grabbing you by the collar and dragging you through the day....maybe they should stop. Sadly, by the time you realize it's time to go, others memories of a once great career are tainted by the bitterness of having to carry you every shift, and before you know it, your name is under every stick shaker cap in the airline.
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 11:35
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Thank GOD I flew from the CUCKOOs nest

Reading this thread confirms my decision many years ago- Thank God I flew from the Cuckoos nest!

What lovely work environment- Yeah Right !!
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Old 17th Jul 2016, 12:17
  #40 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
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goodonyamate - probably nothing more dangerous than an FO who likes to think he is 'carrying' the captain.


I wasn't QANTAS but major aviation was not always as you suggest.


Qualify as a cadet, say, twenty one years old?, go do 1500 PIC with a carrier that will give you that kind of experience, back to mainline for ten years as a SO, upgrade to FO, at least ten years in RHS before even considered for command, when promoted many years on a stand-by roster, retire at 55.


Always an eye opener when a young buck climbs into the LHS for the first time in the SIM. Interesting to observe when things start going wrong. Nothing out of the ordinary but just the normal SIM stuff, except this time all eyes are upon him and all decisions are his. The hardest part of a right to left seat transition is the mental transition and that is where the cracks will appear, if any.
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