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Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN

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Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN

Old 28th Jul 2015, 13:32
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Bbb,

Are you sure about that?

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/...uirements.aspx

https://tas-ekgcareers.taleo.net/car...l?job=130000XA

Only lists ATPL and level 4 English.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 16:35
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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I guess with this vote we have proven again how far detached the "northern state" is from the rest of th country (and the free world). Thanks guys. (Or thanks "youse" in Queensland speak)
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 22:43
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Firstly, I voted yes, I voted yes because I am leaving soon and doing so is the right move for me, and will take the money and run, good luck. I have not done this out of spite, I do this because it is apparent that this 15% bribe, has not been seen by the wider pilot group for what it is. It is a bad deal, and you will see that soon enough.

Once again the pilot group has shown their support of a proposal endorsed by the SSA EBA negotiators and turned their back on the bullshit thrown around in this thread.
Yes, and more so seen through the vicious no campaign from the vocal minority and voted with their heads.
All they saw was "the bribe" or "the easy way out".
You two should put your D^&*s back in your pants. The personal attacks you cowards have launched on a few individuals who have questioned what our reps were telling is shameful, you are a disgrace to our proofession. "Vicious no campaign", there was no such thing, some were highlighting the shortfalls of the proposed document for those of us that are either too stupid or too lazy to conduct any form of due diligence for ourselves.

I can't wait to hear all the bitching and moaning that will happen when everyone receives the bribe payments, and realises that:
1) 10% will not be at current rate, and,
2) the tax man will take roughly half of this lump of cash.

I am ashamed to have called some of you friends, you owe those that have taken the time to test what the reps were telling us, an apology.

Last edited by Shed Dog Tosser; 28th Jul 2015 at 23:29.
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 01:34
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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bon voyage. You still voted yes and yet you whinge.
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 04:32
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Wow, such integrity SDT. Don't let the door hit you on the way out
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 05:15
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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You guys crack me up.

Others vote no, for their own reasons, and you believe they are scum of the earth and publicly assassinate their character.

You vote yes, for your own reasons and that is apparently OK.

Others, like me, also vote yes, for my own reasons ( perhaps different reasons to you ), and we / I lack integrity. If I vote yes for your reasons, can we be friends again ?

To quote an earlier poster,
it really does show how unintelligent you are.
Over and Out
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 07:41
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Shed Dog

Let it go mate. You obviously weren't happy at Sunnies as you are about to move on to other things. I genuinely wish you good luck. However a bit juvenile to have one last stab before heading out the door.

Why would you care now anyway?

Your time may be better spent hitting the books for the new gig perhaps.
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 09:41
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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I voted yes, and just like Shed Dog I'm outa here, but first I'm going to grab this cash. I'm just glad I'll be able to take advantage of this deal before I go.

That's why I voted yes, not because it was a good deal, that's for sure. Only an idiot would think this is a good deal overall. It may be good to line a few pockets (like mine), but it certainly wasn't the best deal we could have got. These negotiators some of you love so much did virtually nothing for you except come to a quick agreement. That is obviously good for me and Shed Dog, but for any of you suckers that are hanging around in this outfit, you fell for the smoke and mirrors I saw in the road show. And pilots are thought of as intelligent.

And to see some post on here their happiness to a 75% yes vote on an agreement that is laughable, is actually laughable (yet pitiful and pathetic at the same time).

Unlike many of you, I took the time to go on the AFAP site and read the EAA updates and the explanations of the differences, not because I was going to be affected by this EBA (thanks for the cash guys), but because I just wanted to know what the 'vocal minority' were on about. After seeing the differences I'm amazed at what our negotiators agreed to. As an example, when the company brought in the idea of DHA in an attempt to reduce sick leave (and yes that's the intent if you didn't know), the company actually suggested the rates $10 for Capt and $6.50 for FOs. Yet somehow our negotiators worked their magic and got this down (WTF) to the figures in our agreement. Not only that, but FO 55% pay for three years. The company must have been laughing. Hell, even I'm laughing.

What you 'yes' voters don't realise is that now that this bargaining power has been given away by our negotiators, you're not going to get that back. At the next EBA negotiations, which I won't be around for, your negotiators are going to have to find some other ways to fund any improvements to your EBA. The company will continue to get more efficiency out of you at no cost and all you will get is (hopefully) your CPI increases. If you want more than that then you're gonna have to give something up.

Well, that's not my problem any more. Enjoy suckers.
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 10:16
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Watching all of this as an interested observer I am amazed you guys are duking it out on a public forum. I offer a few pieces of advice -

Get a private forum to discuss Union and EBA related things.

Next EBA give the TWU a call and you may end up with a better result. The AFAP are only interested in getting your annual fees for the MBF. They have demonstrated time and time again they are willing to trade away conditions for short term $$.

Thirdly you guys need to look past the dollars. If you have already sold the farm to pay for the bonuses and pay rises, what the hell are you going to do next time around? The cupboard is bare!!
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 10:52
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Forgive me for asking, but is that the same TWU that thought the first Jetstar EBA was good for a yes vote?
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 13:23
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You guys (SDT and Denzel) will need the cash when you're in CX.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 00:54
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Denzeldude and Shed Dog

Thank you sincerely for your posts as during this process a lot of Drivers may have had second thoughts about voting to not include low experience new FO's in the overall improved rate that current Drivers would get in the new EBA until 4 yrs of service.

I, like many did have thoughts about the morality of "selling out the unborns", as some put it. But you 2 have cleared my conscience for me, thank you.

I believe our wages have been kept back for many years because of people that only considered it a stepping stone. VARA turned up from nowhere and paid better from day one.

It may be a noble cause for current drivers to be concerned about what the unborns will be paid but people who intend to use this place for a stepping stone could not give a stuff what current drivers will be getting paid in a decade. Gees, you guys have not even left yet and you don't give a stuff.

If you are a 1,000hr wonder who turns up next year, gets a free endorsement and intends to leave asap, I could not give a toss what rogering you get. Exactly the same as you would have no concern if I am getting paid McDonalds wages in 20yrs. In fact, let's split the difference between the loyal Drivers and Management - hey, that's what we have done!

Let's look after the loyal employees.

Enjoy the smog in Hong Kong!
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 01:12
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Ironic really that some of the vocal haters here may be heading to Cathay...

I wonder if they've read the forums here about life up there at the moment?

Sounds like buckets of fun...
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 02:36
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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I voted yes, and just like Shed Dog I'm outa here, but first I'm going to grab this cash. I'm just glad I'll be able to take advantage of this deal before I go.

That's why I voted yes, not because it was a good deal, that's for sure. Only an idiot would think this is a good deal overall. It may be good to line a few pockets (like mine), but it certainly wasn't the best deal we could have got. These negotiators some of you love so much did virtually nothing for you except come to a quick agreement. That is obviously good for me and Shed Dog, but for any of you suckers that are hanging around in this outfit, you fell for the smoke and mirrors I saw in the road show. And pilots are thought of as intelligent.

And to see some post on here their happiness to a 75% yes vote on an agreement that is laughable, is actually laughable (yet pitiful and pathetic at the same time).

Unlike many of you, I took the time to go on the AFAP site and read the EAA updates and the explanations of the differences, not because I was going to be affected by this EBA (thanks for the cash guys), but because I just wanted to know what the 'vocal minority' were on about. After seeing the differences I'm amazed at what our negotiators agreed to. As an example, when the company brought in the idea of DHA in an attempt to reduce sick leave (and yes that's the intent if you didn't know), the company actually suggested the rates $10 for Capt and $6.50 for FOs. Yet somehow our negotiators worked their magic and got this down (WTF) to the figures in our agreement. Not only that, but FO 55% pay for three years. The company must have been laughing. Hell, even I'm laughing.

What you 'yes' voters don't realise is that now that this bargaining power has been given away by our negotiators, you're not going to get that back. At the next EBA negotiations, which I won't be around for, your negotiators are going to have to find some other ways to fund any improvements to your EBA. The company will continue to get more efficiency out of you at no cost and all you will get is (hopefully) your CPI increases. If you want more than that then you're gonna have to give something up.

Well, that's not my problem any more. Enjoy suckers.

I hope this guy chokes on that fresh Hong Kong smog and has a very short career/life in Hong Kong/in general. But this worm has a point. The only people who would benefit from this putrid EBA are the ones who are trying to cash in and get out.

If you voted that thing up and are planning on sticking around for even more than 6 months you are as short sighted and stupid as your negotiators.
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 14:47
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

I was told about this discussion from a colleague, it's quite a sad read.

I'd like to say I can't believe it but unfortunately it's not surprising. The only thing more disappointing than a company conquering a Pilot group, and watching the pay, conditions and lifestyle being degraded, is a 'Union' that promotes it.

Take a long term approach and work to improve the EBA, don't strip it out to cash up for the next three years. You get the guys like Denzeldude and Shed Dog who take advantage of poor negotiating and if you give them that chance then they will take it. And a B-Scale. Setting up a B-Scale is the beginning of the end. You will never get it back and it will expedite the decline of the Qlink work conditions. Unbelievable.

The heart of this failure is a union that no one trusts or likes, crippling a Pilot's right to choose a union with the blackmail of insurance. IMHO you need to get the noose off from around your necks and start thinking of the future. You may, potentially, remotely possibly, need the insurance at some point in your life but you'll definitely need a sustainable industry for all of your careers.

I used to be an AFAP member. I'm free now. Join whatever union you like but you should do it by choice, not to get insurance. It might give you the unity you need to start heading in the right direction
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 23:22
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Told about this thread by a colleague???

This thread has been running for a long time and you have just stumbled upon due to a colleague. Obviously you are very far removed from Sunnies and the latest EBA. Don't want to sound rude but your post blatantly shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 00:37
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The problem with the B-scale contract now in force at Sunstate is that it applies both to 1000 hour wannabees, and to the relatively few multi-thousand hour pilots with families who just want to settle down.

If Sunstate had dropped wages only for sub-2000hr pilots, it would be hard to argue against.

But given the difficulty of getting an ATPL in GA now, it will apply to every newly employed FO fairly soon.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 02:52
  #198 (permalink)  
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So the vote is in, and the Sunnies EBA was voted up.

CONGRATULATIONS, the Sunstate pilots have set a

NEW LOW IN AIRLINE T&C’s

No protection in the EBA against multi-day trips away from home base, no guarantee of any more time off than 8 days per roster. And while the Captains get a semi-decent payrise and a good chunk of cash, the FO’s get a semi-decent payrise and some cash, new hires (those without an ATPL/2000 TT) get thrown under the bus, and will earn little more than what a new hire at REX earns.

Of course, there will be predictable messages of personal abuse from the usual subjects.

Oddly enough, in all the pages of this thread, the “YES” brigade have provided almost nothing in the way of counter-argument. Nearly all the replies have been nothing more than name calling and abuse (Going Nowhere being an exception).

I’m not sure why there is such angst against DENZELDUDE and SDT. As I predicted early on in this thread, there was going to be a considerable YES vote from pilots who’re about to leave but want their cash bonus before they go. They voted YES, what more do you want? (Oh that’s right, they also said it was a bad deal. Presumably you’ve got no problem with people taking the money and running, as long as they say it’s a good EBA).

But before you bag them out maybe you should consider why they are leaving. Qlink is a career-end job, everyone knows that. The peak of your flying career is a Q400 Captain, or check and trainer if you like. There is no pathway into jets, and some other Turboprop operators pay more money. So one of the major reasons for staying is lifestyle! Under our “new” management we’ve seen our lifestyle suffer, more so with the introduction of Optimiser. So when your own negotiators give away any possibility for lifestyle improvements in the upcoming EBA, it gives them more reason to leave.

They’re not all going to HK; one went to VARA, and some are going to either VANZ, or to VAI as cruise FO’s.

Rumours of J* recruiting again, and Emirates taking TP time, expect another exodus.

Also consider that some FO’s will go for 1-2 years to J*NZ as Q300 Captains, and there are rumours of night freight.

If the above has any effect on future staffing, the remaining pilots can expect a maximum workload for at least the next 12 months, possibly longer.
But thinking of those things and potential impacts to lifestyle was a bit hard for many Sunstate pilots, apparrently.

IMHO, the ignorance of many of the Sunstate pilots can be summarized by this:

Eastern, you're on your own journey, best of luck, genuinely.
Mate, you DO realize, don’t you, that your acceptance of this deal is why we’re in the bind that we’re in. It’s as if you’ve deliberately tripped up a person in the street. You look over your shoulder and wish them a speedy recovery as you walk away.

And as for

Denzeldude and Shed Dog

Thank you sincerely for your posts as during this process a lot of Drivers may have had second thoughts about voting to not include low experience new FO's in the overall improved rate that current Drivers would get in the new EBA until 4 yrs of service.

I, like many did have thoughts about the morality of "selling out the unborns", as some put it. But you 2 have cleared my conscience for me, thank you.

I believe our wages have been kept back for many years because of people that only considered it a stepping stone. VARA turned up from nowhere and paid better from day one.

It may be a noble cause for current drivers to be concerned about what the unborns will be paid but people who intend to use this place for a stepping stone could not give a stuff what current drivers will be getting paid in a decade. Gees, you guys have not even left yet and you don't give a stuff.

If you are a 1,000hr wonder who turns up next year, gets a free endorsement and intends to leave asap, I could not give a toss what rogering you get. Exactly the same as you would have no concern if I am getting paid McDonalds wages in 20yrs. In fact, let's split the difference between the loyal Drivers and Management - hey, that's what we have done!

Let's look after the loyal employees.
If I read this right, you’re justifying some poor New Hires crap wages (and by your post you’re admitting here that they are crap wages) by blaming SOMEBODY ELSE who’s left the company.

And that New Hire can only prove him or herself to you by enduring the same crap wages for three years.

YOU are part of the reason why any New Hire will treat Qlink as a stepping stone!

And I love the “VICIOUS NO CAMPAIGN”. The only viciousness I’ve seen here is from people who’s responses include:

I hope the ramifications from that get back at you in big way.
I would like to further counter your pig ignorant posts; but I'm not fluent in stupid.
They are on our side you dickheads!

Another of my earlier predictions was that this result would turn people against the AFAP. A clarification for White Wagon and Average Joe (and any others):

The AFAP supports and provides structure and legal frameworks to affiliated pilot groups. I’m not sure of how they interact with small pilot groups and individuals, but with groups such as Eastern, Sunstate, J*, Virgin, they are “in the jumpseat” as it were with regards to decision making and direction. If you have any issues regarding this EBA, then it should be directed appropriately:

The Sunstate EBA team.

The Sunstate EBA team are all working pilots. For all we know, the AFAP reps may well have advised them NOT to accept a sub-standard EBA while the EAA team were still negotiating theirs.

Anyway.

Meanwhile down south, Eastern pilots have been successful in their PIA ballot.

But why?

Because76% of Eastern pilots believe that the Sunnies EBA was crap, for the reasons I’ve given (amongst others). The company is only offering the Eastern pilots the same crap deal. Eastern pilots don’t want to fund our payrises by robbing new hires of their money, and Eastern pilots realize that without further lifestyle protections we’re going to be worked harder.

We don’t consider it acceptable to be rostered to fly 20 out of 28 days, nor do we consider it acceptable to do multi-day trips where either day 2 or day 3 is a 10 plus hour day following a min-rest overnight.

(More than) Enough from me.

DIVOSH!

Last edited by Di_Vosh; 2nd Aug 2015 at 22:11. Reason: Not 100% on J* recruitment.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 03:01
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Definently enough. Even your own pilots want you to cease your ramblings. The vote is over. It's done. Concentrate on your own EBA and PIA because buddy I think you need help.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 05:53
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Just be in no doubt Deafstar at the level of disbelief felt amongst Eastern pilots towards our northern colleagues. How, given what we've been through and with a profit announcement expected this week, Sunnies could not even test the water for a better outcome is beyond all of us. As for DiVosh's 'ramblings', nothing he has said is false, and you'll find most of us down south in full agreement.
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