Qantas Fleet Order Speculation
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps Qantas could do an EBAY style bidding war to operate the 787?
Or perhaps a reality TV it's a knockout style production?
They could stream it live to the "street" at Mascot. Executives could take bets on the pilot that gives away the most in a desperate grapple for a potential seat change.
Pilots eager for a possible promotion(no guarantees), could complete against one another in a trade off of conditions. He or she who trades away the most wins, and gets an Immunity pin stapled to his uniform by Alan himself.
Or perhaps a reality TV it's a knockout style production?
They could stream it live to the "street" at Mascot. Executives could take bets on the pilot that gives away the most in a desperate grapple for a potential seat change.
Pilots eager for a possible promotion(no guarantees), could complete against one another in a trade off of conditions. He or she who trades away the most wins, and gets an Immunity pin stapled to his uniform by Alan himself.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha Tuner 2!
If I am thinking of the same idiot he would have to drive a convertible, his head wouldn't fit in anything else!
From what I can glean it seems a pretty good deal except that some form of "overtime" credit should be there for ultra long haul, maybe after 14 or 15 hours instead of 12. It looks like the preferred trips will change to be the shorter ones. (If there are any)
Will be interesting to see all the details.
If I am thinking of the same idiot he would have to drive a convertible, his head wouldn't fit in anything else!
From what I can glean it seems a pretty good deal except that some form of "overtime" credit should be there for ultra long haul, maybe after 14 or 15 hours instead of 12. It looks like the preferred trips will change to be the shorter ones. (If there are any)
Will be interesting to see all the details.
Perhaps Qantas could do an EBAY style bidding war to operate the 787?
Or perhaps a reality TV it's a knockout style production?
They could stream it live to the "street" at Mascot. Executives could take bets on the pilot that gives away the most in a desperate grapple for a potential seat change.
Pilots eager for a possible promotion(no guarantees), could complete against one another in a trade off of conditions. He or she who trades away the most wins, and gets an Immunity pin stapled to his uniform by Alan himself.
Or perhaps a reality TV it's a knockout style production?
They could stream it live to the "street" at Mascot. Executives could take bets on the pilot that gives away the most in a desperate grapple for a potential seat change.
Pilots eager for a possible promotion(no guarantees), could complete against one another in a trade off of conditions. He or she who trades away the most wins, and gets an Immunity pin stapled to his uniform by Alan himself.
Ho hum! Whatever Qantas LH pilots decide, we will no doubt be pilloried by the expert "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" of PPRuNe.
If we "give away" too much to ensure a future in an environment where countless others have already done so due to Shiny Jet Syndrome or the need for instant gratification, we will be criticized as being spineless and submissive to the demands of Alan and his cronies. If we hold out or knock-back the new EA, we will be regarded as outdated dinosaurs who are 'no longer relevant' in the new world order. We are in a no-win situation!
So I would encourage all LH pilots to look at this EA from their own perspective and vote accordingly. Personally, I am nearing the end of my flying career and this EA probably represents the last opportunity for me to gain a command under reasonable conditions before I retire within the next decade. If not for the advent of Jetstar, this opportunity would have presented itself many years earlier, but the current airline environment is so vastly different to the one that I entered all those years ago.
So I would say to the outspoken knockers on either side of the fence, "Give it a rest!" A "yes" vote won't represent a 'sell-out", just like a "no" vote won't represent a "delusional fossil". This EA is not about a collective industrial philosophy; it is about everyone's individual future, and will, I hope, be voted on accordingly.
If we "give away" too much to ensure a future in an environment where countless others have already done so due to Shiny Jet Syndrome or the need for instant gratification, we will be criticized as being spineless and submissive to the demands of Alan and his cronies. If we hold out or knock-back the new EA, we will be regarded as outdated dinosaurs who are 'no longer relevant' in the new world order. We are in a no-win situation!
So I would encourage all LH pilots to look at this EA from their own perspective and vote accordingly. Personally, I am nearing the end of my flying career and this EA probably represents the last opportunity for me to gain a command under reasonable conditions before I retire within the next decade. If not for the advent of Jetstar, this opportunity would have presented itself many years earlier, but the current airline environment is so vastly different to the one that I entered all those years ago.
So I would say to the outspoken knockers on either side of the fence, "Give it a rest!" A "yes" vote won't represent a 'sell-out", just like a "no" vote won't represent a "delusional fossil". This EA is not about a collective industrial philosophy; it is about everyone's individual future, and will, I hope, be voted on accordingly.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am also hearing that one of the louder and more frequent contributor to qrewroom captains on com intends to engineer a no vote to use as leverage for the AIPA presidency. Scary thought.
There is no doubt the 'way of doing things' has evolved for the better recently, and credit must be given to the current AIPA president and COM, as well as the company. If that what you say is true, it would be back to the days of old.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If I am thinking of the same idiot he would have to drive a convertible, his head wouldn't fit in anything else"
I think we are talking about the same one! He had his time on the exec/com with the 'revolution' and IMO achieved zilch for the pilots, but now wants another crack and will use a fear campaign in this EBA to try and open the door.
I think we are talking about the same one! He had his time on the exec/com with the 'revolution' and IMO achieved zilch for the pilots, but now wants another crack and will use a fear campaign in this EBA to try and open the door.
Tuner said :
"The majority of four engine captains will vote no - mostly because of the remote possibility of a psn getting up in their category."
Are you referring to the rotating seniority referrendum? My understanding was that it would go ahead after (and regardless of the outcome) the EA vote. With the stagnation on those types combined with the inability tobid backwards, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it get up there.
It's a brave new world :-) and a fairer one!
"The majority of four engine captains will vote no - mostly because of the remote possibility of a psn getting up in their category."
Are you referring to the rotating seniority referrendum? My understanding was that it would go ahead after (and regardless of the outcome) the EA vote. With the stagnation on those types combined with the inability tobid backwards, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it get up there.
It's a brave new world :-) and a fairer one!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very well said Shark Patrol.
I still think it will get up.
Pilots are desperate for promotion and will do anything,despite the economic environment starting to boom for QF International.
I'm surprised they will do 20-30% more work, for less money with zero overtime and no proper FRMS, but agree it could be worse.
Better to go for it, then bitch like crazy pilot style when the Bonuses flow soon for the execs after they have duped the silly pilots.
The new agreement is genius from QF, as it works you to the CAO limits ,you can never earn any more than around 300k as a Captain, 200k for an FO and 100k as an SO. You'll also be flying 185 hours in today's Hours for that.
Of Course you could take a Flexi line and do less hours to bring you back to the equivalent 160 hour mark, when you find yourself constantly jet lagged and fatigued.
That will bring a CPT pay down to around 240k, 160k FO, and 85k for an SO for flying 160 hours in today's hours. You will be able to enjoy 15-18 hour night sectors, with jet lag too!
Should it not get up, that's NOT the end of negotiation.
The last two SH EBAs have had a NO vote and BOTH got better deals the second time.
The same with the JQ EBA that many on this forum accused of being spineless.
A NO vote just sends the negotiating team back to the table. Would the company/AIPA president want this result, No, however it would not mean the end of negotiations.
First offers, just like buying a house,car etc, are just that, first offers.
I still think it will get up.
Pilots are desperate for promotion and will do anything,despite the economic environment starting to boom for QF International.
I'm surprised they will do 20-30% more work, for less money with zero overtime and no proper FRMS, but agree it could be worse.
Better to go for it, then bitch like crazy pilot style when the Bonuses flow soon for the execs after they have duped the silly pilots.
The new agreement is genius from QF, as it works you to the CAO limits ,you can never earn any more than around 300k as a Captain, 200k for an FO and 100k as an SO. You'll also be flying 185 hours in today's Hours for that.
Of Course you could take a Flexi line and do less hours to bring you back to the equivalent 160 hour mark, when you find yourself constantly jet lagged and fatigued.
That will bring a CPT pay down to around 240k, 160k FO, and 85k for an SO for flying 160 hours in today's hours. You will be able to enjoy 15-18 hour night sectors, with jet lag too!
Should it not get up, that's NOT the end of negotiation.
The last two SH EBAs have had a NO vote and BOTH got better deals the second time.
The same with the JQ EBA that many on this forum accused of being spineless.
A NO vote just sends the negotiating team back to the table. Would the company/AIPA president want this result, No, however it would not mean the end of negotiations.
First offers, just like buying a house,car etc, are just that, first offers.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Strayer
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"A NO vote just sends the negotiating team back to the table. Would the company/AIPA president want this result, No, however it would not mean the end of negotiations."
Stop it, you're getting me all excited now
Stop it, you're getting me all excited now
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So we vote no, get sent back in, probably lose all the gains like ATO allowances, EMVS win, home transport fairer win, alt pax win, duty travel wins, definitely don't get anything on staff travel, no democratic and overdue PSN ballot, no much needed change to RIN in base, no gains in sick leave. Possibly no 787s or less 787s or 787s given to some other entity or not at all, while still subject to the 18 month pay freeze. If you think they haven't cottoned on to the 'vote no get better deal' idea by now then you're either extremely arrogant or optimistic.
Sounds great.
Sounds great.
Qantas Dreamliner purchase puts exit from 'junk' at risk, says NAB
Chief executive officer Alan Joyce may need to make more sacrifices, including delaying purchases of Boeing 787 Dreamliners a second time, National Australia Bank says.
Chief executive officer Alan Joyce may need to make more sacrifices, including delaying purchases of Boeing 787 Dreamliners a second time, National Australia Bank says.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas Dreamliner purchase puts exit from 'junk' at risk, says NAB
Chief executive officer Alan Joyce may need to make more sacrifices, including delaying purchases of Boeing 787 Dreamliners a second time, National Australia Bank says.
Chief executive officer Alan Joyce may need to make more sacrifices, including delaying purchases of Boeing 787 Dreamliners a second time, National Australia Bank says.
If these guys were in charge we'd still be flying Avro 504s and wondering why passengers don't want to fly with us.
You have to spend money to make money, penny wise pound foolish, haven't these guys heard of these old chestnuts?
They seem to lose the point entirely that attracting customers to fly with you is all about product and value for money. You can't do that with out of date equipment. Especially when that out of date equipment uses substantially more kero to operate than that of your competitors.
Get your heads out of your asses (spreadsheets) and join us in the real world.
Tuner 2, you appear to have a jaundiced view of your peers. Quite a few "4 Eng Captains" are on COM & have worked to get the best possible T's & C's for the fleet that the majority of QF pilots will spend a lot of their career flying despite it having no effect on their own careers. They have not acted selfishly in any way.
The captain that you are referring to has done a lot of research and argued to get the best conditions possible and, no, he has no aspirations to become the AIPA President.
The captain that you are referring to has done a lot of research and argued to get the best conditions possible and, no, he has no aspirations to become the AIPA President.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GB
I simply have a view that the majority of 744 and 380 captains will vote no because of the psn. That doesn't make me jaundiced. It's just my opinion and if I'm wrong then great. Never said anything bad about the contributions made by people on com to get the best deal. Very glad to hear that particular person doesn't have those ambitions as that's not where I think the membership is or wants to go.
I simply have a view that the majority of 744 and 380 captains will vote no because of the psn. That doesn't make me jaundiced. It's just my opinion and if I'm wrong then great. Never said anything bad about the contributions made by people on com to get the best deal. Very glad to hear that particular person doesn't have those ambitions as that's not where I think the membership is or wants to go.
The Virgin guys voted no the first time which cost quite a few people quite a lot of money, for little or no gain in the second offer.
Vote on the agreement as it stands not as a tool to try and get a better deal..
Vote on the agreement as it stands not as a tool to try and get a better deal..
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree Snakecharmer,
Think Tuner2 is being far too melodramatic. You'd almost assume he had presidential pressures to deliver a result to his masters.
Can't see a NO vote suddenly pulling conditions off the table. It would just get voted down again. Not what Qantas want to announce at an AGM in August.
Would tarnish a return to record profits.
It will be a bonus target to have EBAs signed off too.
Ask yourself why there is suddenly a rush to get the deal voted up before the August profit announcement?
The No votes in Shorthaul the last few EBAs, or in JQ, didn't threaten stripping conditions either. But maybe AIPA don't have the ability to go back in to bat and negotiate should it not get up? Thank goodness Qantas are not making losses now.
It's the second officers that stand to lose the most as far as I can see. Junior LH CPTs and FOs too but to a much lesser extent.
If the 787 is a 747 replacement for the next five to ten years only, then those that get bumped to the 787 on SO pay, will get smashed once the short lived protections wear off.
I wonder how they will pay the mortgage, school fees, cost of living in Sydney with more than a $100,000 pay cut?
Think Tuner2 is being far too melodramatic. You'd almost assume he had presidential pressures to deliver a result to his masters.
Can't see a NO vote suddenly pulling conditions off the table. It would just get voted down again. Not what Qantas want to announce at an AGM in August.
Would tarnish a return to record profits.
It will be a bonus target to have EBAs signed off too.
Ask yourself why there is suddenly a rush to get the deal voted up before the August profit announcement?
The No votes in Shorthaul the last few EBAs, or in JQ, didn't threaten stripping conditions either. But maybe AIPA don't have the ability to go back in to bat and negotiate should it not get up? Thank goodness Qantas are not making losses now.
It's the second officers that stand to lose the most as far as I can see. Junior LH CPTs and FOs too but to a much lesser extent.
If the 787 is a 747 replacement for the next five to ten years only, then those that get bumped to the 787 on SO pay, will get smashed once the short lived protections wear off.
I wonder how they will pay the mortgage, school fees, cost of living in Sydney with more than a $100,000 pay cut?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frarcampaign you can be assured I have no com let alone presidential ambitions. It seems pretty thankless to me and there are too many armchair experts to tell you how to do your job! I do agree the psn vote is a different vote but I think some want kill even the risk of it. As is their right.
Nunc est bibendum
It's the second officers that stand to lose the most as far as I can see. Junior LH CPTs and FOs too but to a much lesser extent.
Ask yourself why there is suddenly a rush to get the deal voted up before the August profit announcement?
The reason for them feeling the pinch? Prior to the profit announcement there is a board meeting. At that board meeting the business case for a significant expansion of the business will be put forward. Part of that business case requires 'certainty' around the terms and conditions paid to those who operate the aeroplane. No EA signed off, no business case for the board, no decision on expansion and that probably has an impact on what Qantas can say to Boeing about when the aeroplanes are scheduled to start arriving.
I hope Qantas announces a billion plus dollar profit and retires an extra billion in debt- a scenario I see as likely. We all know fuel will be a big part of it but I don't care what AJ's bonus is as long as he announces an expansion of the business.