Qantas Fleet Order Speculation
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Trade away hard fought terms and conditions and the new jet orders will suddenly flow, new destinations appear, codeshares reduced as the pilots are on board finally.
It's very hard to argue that under the current award you can have two 380's from two different companies departing Sydney, fly 14+ hours and then have QF watch as overtime kick in as you enter the Bubin hold, then have your crew costs blow out exponentially for 40+min then again for another 25min as you drag your arse around the trombone at 230/210/180kts. Whilst your competitors, partner, whatever, costs are constant.
What appears on offer is purely a flatter cost in ULR operations, but with a higher hourly rate.
If the company could start a greenfields operation it would have done it.
I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD
What if all the gives don't secure a future?
What if all it achieves is a jet for jet replacement ? What if there is zero growth ?
That's a lose lose situation.
That's a lose lose situation.
Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
I can't see how a crappy deal is good for the next generation.
Agree the super seniority system has to go. The PSN system is fair and equitable. That's not the point.
Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
But good luck with you fear campaign, I'm sure it's working out well for you so far.
Last edited by OnceBitten; 6th Jun 2015 at 05:46.
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This EA isn't about dwelling on the past, it's about moving forward.
If we think that way and worry about past dealings we will just consign ourselves to industrial history.
If we think that way and worry about past dealings we will just consign ourselves to industrial history.
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Oncebitten,
Please read my earlier posts. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding me so I'll make it clear.
I'm not arguing for A380/747 pay for the 787, nor the same overtime triggers that crews currently get on a DFW.
The proposed deal gives you zero hours.
I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.
You would NOT get the huge multipliers as you do now(your piggy in the trough scenario)
You'd still have incentive to fly these routes, it just would not be as exorbitant.
If the new type has PSN, then no one will snout desirable trips exclusively anyway!
Thats what a compromise deal is. Pilots still get some incentive and the company makes a saving and gets a unit cost reduction too.
However the current deal wipes it to zero. That's poor negotiating.
The removal of night credits mean that pilots effectively do another one to two 4-5 day trips a roster for free.
Night credits are not a monetary payment but a duty credit that acknowledges the fatigue associated with back of the clock operations.
Thankfully they are still there for 2/3 pilot ops, although sadly reduced.
Look at the low levels of sick leave on overtime patterns.
Watch that change if the rate is zero. That's Qantas problem so perhaps AIPA may have a position to change this once the company works out it's costing them more than a few hours overtime.
We are in agreement on the PSN proposition, but for existing fleets, that is separate from this EA.
If it is a 60% threshold in rank, on type, then it is a fair and democratic process. Other hauls and fleets can pontificate what should happen, however, thankfully it's down to the people to decide on that fleet/rank.
Please read my earlier posts. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding me so I'll make it clear.
I'm not arguing for A380/747 pay for the 787, nor the same overtime triggers that crews currently get on a DFW.
The proposed deal gives you zero hours.
I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.
You would NOT get the huge multipliers as you do now(your piggy in the trough scenario)
You'd still have incentive to fly these routes, it just would not be as exorbitant.
If the new type has PSN, then no one will snout desirable trips exclusively anyway!
Thats what a compromise deal is. Pilots still get some incentive and the company makes a saving and gets a unit cost reduction too.
However the current deal wipes it to zero. That's poor negotiating.
The removal of night credits mean that pilots effectively do another one to two 4-5 day trips a roster for free.
Night credits are not a monetary payment but a duty credit that acknowledges the fatigue associated with back of the clock operations.
Thankfully they are still there for 2/3 pilot ops, although sadly reduced.
Look at the low levels of sick leave on overtime patterns.
Watch that change if the rate is zero. That's Qantas problem so perhaps AIPA may have a position to change this once the company works out it's costing them more than a few hours overtime.
We are in agreement on the PSN proposition, but for existing fleets, that is separate from this EA.
If it is a 60% threshold in rank, on type, then it is a fair and democratic process. Other hauls and fleets can pontificate what should happen, however, thankfully it's down to the people to decide on that fleet/rank.
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The proposed deal gives you zero hours.
I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.
I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.
To me it's something from a bygone era.
I think the higher hourly rate distributed over all sectors instead of just being lumped at the tail end of ULR sectors for a few is a much fairer way of distributing remuneration and spreading your cost base.
JMHO.
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Some competitors also pay more too.
China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.
Had night credits on ULH routes been retained and only overtime given away then perhaps it might be a better sell.
However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates.
Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates.
50% time in the bunk presumes one sleeps the entire time.Anyone who flies ULH knows this is not always possible depending on body clock e.t.c
It's a simplistic view.
Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.
Had night credits on ULH routes been retained and only overtime given away then perhaps it might be a better sell.
However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates.
Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates.
50% time in the bunk presumes one sleeps the entire time.Anyone who flies ULH knows this is not always possible depending on body clock e.t.c
It's a simplistic view.
Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
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The removal of night credits mean that pilots effectively do another one to two 4-5 day trips a roster for free.
The other mis-truth being sprouted at the moment is this gem that without overtime and night credits there will be no incentive (or compensation) to bid for ULR flying. What BS!! Its called density. The incentive is you can do more of your required hours flying in less amount of days = MORE DAYS OFF AT HOME (some people may even call this "lifestyle"
. Pretty much all SH folks and anyone flying ULR for any of our major competitors understand this concept. (Caveat - Clearly there are some variables here like route frequency and total time away from base but these occur with or without overtime and is where MDC protection kicks in) .
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Some competitors also pay more too.
China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.
China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.
If you think that is what you want i'm sure you know where to apply.
[quote]
Had night credits on ULH routes been retained and only overtime given away then perhaps it might be a better sell.
However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates
Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates. /quote]
However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates
Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates. /quote]
At $300 an hour that is substantially more than a top ranked 767 Capt received in the past, and he/she never received any significant overtime. I also noticed you failed to mention that on medium to shorter routes you will work the same and get paid more, so for you it really is all about the overtime. The 787 has the scope to cover both 767 and 380 flying distance wise, so to disregard the pluses in pay to the medium style flying is cherry picking for your own agenda.
50% time in the bunk presumes one sleeps the entire time.Anyone who flies ULH knows this is not always possible depending on body clock e.t.c
It's a simplistic view.
Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
It's a simplistic view.
Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
So I put it to you again Mr FearCampaign, in front of this audience I will ask you this again,
Why does your company need to pay a premium for you to do the same ULR job that your direct competitors/Partners/whatever don't pay?
Anyway, I'm off to do my non-overtime ULR.
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Overall I think the proposed changes are at face value a fair replacement for a B767 replacement. I also agree with the chance to vote on Cage Roster.
I can however see if it's also a replacement for other AC in the Longhaul Fleet that many more pilots are affected than the normal process, eg. b747- A380 was just a adjustment in Pay %.
The argument that just because other Airlines don't have overtime QF should'nt is weak. Other Airlines in ULH ops also have 2x Capt and 2x FO's or (1x FO,1x SO) on the flight deck but QF choose not too so I guess that should change also...
I'm sure the current batch of Demoted Capts and FO's would welcome that change in base pay and not worry as much about OT. The fact is OT has always made up a large part of take home pay regardless of how you calculate it and define why you got it.
The cage would just spread it around to all pilots.
I think you'll find most pilots are lucky to get to sleep once in the bunk for about 3-4 hours. That's your total sleep for possibly a 20hr stretch. I think that warrants extra payments via some means.
Call it OT or 'Life Shortening Payment' , I don't care but as fearcampaign said -Your still in a f#%ing aeroplane for 14-18hrs....
FFRTAS
I can however see if it's also a replacement for other AC in the Longhaul Fleet that many more pilots are affected than the normal process, eg. b747- A380 was just a adjustment in Pay %.
The argument that just because other Airlines don't have overtime QF should'nt is weak. Other Airlines in ULH ops also have 2x Capt and 2x FO's or (1x FO,1x SO) on the flight deck but QF choose not too so I guess that should change also...
I'm sure the current batch of Demoted Capts and FO's would welcome that change in base pay and not worry as much about OT. The fact is OT has always made up a large part of take home pay regardless of how you calculate it and define why you got it.
The cage would just spread it around to all pilots.
I think you'll find most pilots are lucky to get to sleep once in the bunk for about 3-4 hours. That's your total sleep for possibly a 20hr stretch. I think that warrants extra payments via some means.
Call it OT or 'Life Shortening Payment' , I don't care but as fearcampaign said -Your still in a f#%ing aeroplane for 14-18hrs....
FFRTAS
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You privileged mob really need to get your stories straight. It was not that long ago that you were selling an argument in defence of accusations of A380 Cptbeing on 500k. You all ran around quoting base pay and defending your renumeration against other airlines.
Now the musics stopped and you are having the largess that bulks out your pay packets cut back all starts to get revealed.
Night credits sim credits overtime for doing a long trip........maybe the original argument over A380 Capts package wasn't far wrong.
If you are going to compare apples with apples you mob have to come clean with your total package.....including extras, scheduling limits etc.
Quoting base pay and comparing it to other airlines that have very little in the way of allowances poor flight and duty limits etc is a false argument.
I worked for another countries national airline $1us DTA no overtime or night credits, 4 crew 24 hour duty,back to back US returns from Asia.
I'd shut up and accept whatever I could get if I was you, your still better of than most of the rest of the industry.
Now the musics stopped and you are having the largess that bulks out your pay packets cut back all starts to get revealed.
Night credits sim credits overtime for doing a long trip........maybe the original argument over A380 Capts package wasn't far wrong.
If you are going to compare apples with apples you mob have to come clean with your total package.....including extras, scheduling limits etc.
Quoting base pay and comparing it to other airlines that have very little in the way of allowances poor flight and duty limits etc is a false argument.
I worked for another countries national airline $1us DTA no overtime or night credits, 4 crew 24 hour duty,back to back US returns from Asia.
I'd shut up and accept whatever I could get if I was you, your still better of than most of the rest of the industry.
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Yes other airlines carry 2 CPT's and 2 FO's so that's very relevant.
EK and the USA carriers combined.
On a DFW-SYD you've usually been up for a lot of the day before you then do a 20 hour duty at night.
You don't necessarily get to take a break when you want to take a sleep.
Agree that your lucky to get 3-4 hours actual sleep when people are not banging around in the cabin and keeping you awake.
3-4 hours is not a nights sleep in a 20 hour duty.
EK and the USA carriers combined.
On a DFW-SYD you've usually been up for a lot of the day before you then do a 20 hour duty at night.
You don't necessarily get to take a break when you want to take a sleep.
Agree that your lucky to get 3-4 hours actual sleep when people are not banging around in the cabin and keeping you awake.
3-4 hours is not a nights sleep in a 20 hour duty.
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Fearcampaign,
Hang on,
SYD-DFW is a 15:35hr flight with 17:05hr duty hours.
DFW-SYD is a 16:50hr flight with 18:20hr duty hours.
Not sure where the 20hr duty is coming from.
So all crew on duty for takeoff, climb & descent would be approx 1:30hrs
Time off from flight deck duties = 15:35-1:30 = 14:05 / 2 (for 4 man crew?)
So approx 7 hours in the bunk (off flight deck duty) in one or more breaks.
Hmmm....you could get much more than 3-4hrs sleep....if the ambient noise bothers you, what about ear plugs, headphones, etc.
How many days off do you get to recover in Dallas or back in Oz?
How many trips in 2 months?
Sorry, I'm not trying to offend, I just don't think it's that hard.
Hang on,
SYD-DFW is a 15:35hr flight with 17:05hr duty hours.
DFW-SYD is a 16:50hr flight with 18:20hr duty hours.
Not sure where the 20hr duty is coming from.
So all crew on duty for takeoff, climb & descent would be approx 1:30hrs
Time off from flight deck duties = 15:35-1:30 = 14:05 / 2 (for 4 man crew?)
So approx 7 hours in the bunk (off flight deck duty) in one or more breaks.
Hmmm....you could get much more than 3-4hrs sleep....if the ambient noise bothers you, what about ear plugs, headphones, etc.
How many days off do you get to recover in Dallas or back in Oz?
How many trips in 2 months?
Sorry, I'm not trying to offend, I just don't think it's that hard.
These OT comparisons are getting confusing.
On this 787 agreement you *will* get paid more to fly DFW return than a HKG, for example as it is worth many more stick hours and those hours are paid at a higher rate. Those that have flown under the SH award would understand how it works regarding a higher rate with fewer add ons.
On the 4 crew 'you just sleep half the flight' chippers, i 100% agree fearcampaign. Its a bloody long duty after being up for a while before and its not always possible to sleep, sometimes at all.
On this 787 agreement you *will* get paid more to fly DFW return than a HKG, for example as it is worth many more stick hours and those hours are paid at a higher rate. Those that have flown under the SH award would understand how it works regarding a higher rate with fewer add ons.
On the 4 crew 'you just sleep half the flight' chippers, i 100% agree fearcampaign. Its a bloody long duty after being up for a while before and its not always possible to sleep, sometimes at all.
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No debating the time off.
Just making the factual point that you cannot always sleep on queue.
Nor get a solid break in one stretch like you do on a normal nights sleep.
It's often not the right time in one's body clock to sleep or your circadian rhythm is all out.
Wish it were a switch like a robot but it's not.
Simplistic to say your sound asleep for 7 hours. whether its a 17-18.5 or 20 TOD its a F&^%$ long night when you may have been awake all day before a departure.
Just making the factual point that you cannot always sleep on queue.
Nor get a solid break in one stretch like you do on a normal nights sleep.
It's often not the right time in one's body clock to sleep or your circadian rhythm is all out.
Wish it were a switch like a robot but it's not.
Simplistic to say your sound asleep for 7 hours. whether its a 17-18.5 or 20 TOD its a F&^%$ long night when you may have been awake all day before a departure.
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Isn't Two crew back of the clock is tiring too with no crew rest? Should these guys miss out on a higher hourly rate so you can get your overtime FC?
You are cherry picking again.
You are cherry picking again.
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Nope,
Done plenty of 2 man back of the clock sectors on the 767.
Just as bad except the flights are shorter and usually no time zone change.Still bloody knackering.
BOTH should have night credits.
That why they exist now!!!!
It's there for a good reason. Someone was smart enough to fight hard for it once upon a time for a bloody good reason.
Any reduction in night credits is a massive backward step.
Done plenty of 2 man back of the clock sectors on the 767.
Just as bad except the flights are shorter and usually no time zone change.Still bloody knackering.
BOTH should have night credits.
That why they exist now!!!!
It's there for a good reason. Someone was smart enough to fight hard for it once upon a time for a bloody good reason.
Any reduction in night credits is a massive backward step.
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Night credits do not pay you any more money in your pocket.
They just limit the number of fatiguing night sectors/patterns you can fly.
If it's daylight and you'd normally be awake you don't get the credit.
Pretty bloody simple and fair concept.
Without a watertight FRMS then Night Credits are a necessary protection IMHO.
They just limit the number of fatiguing night sectors/patterns you can fly.
If it's daylight and you'd normally be awake you don't get the credit.
Pretty bloody simple and fair concept.
Without a watertight FRMS then Night Credits are a necessary protection IMHO.