MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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2.1 About the same ratio of politicians to tax payers we have in Australia but that does not mean we close down federal Parliament and get another country to come in and run Australia for us because there cheaper and more globally competitive . However I think we should get rid of state level government . I'm worried what this mob have installed for international ops next month . I fully agree with fuel off , it should have been made harder to divide the group in the late 90's .
Ollie Onion,
How are these "average" costs per Employee calculated?
I would suggest that as Emirates have a lot more contractors working for them than Qantas, then the cost "per employee" is not quite accurate.
This same formula was used by Brett Godfrey, when he claimed that Virgin Blue, after Ansetts collapse, had carried the same number or more passengers that year, than Ansett did the previous year, but Virgin had done it with far less staff!
Same issue, half of Virgins staff were contractors, not employees,were as virtually all Ansetts staff were employees!
You really need to know the total number of People working for the Airline, Employees, Contractors, Consultants alike to make a more meaningful
comparison.
How are these "average" costs per Employee calculated?
I would suggest that as Emirates have a lot more contractors working for them than Qantas, then the cost "per employee" is not quite accurate.
This same formula was used by Brett Godfrey, when he claimed that Virgin Blue, after Ansetts collapse, had carried the same number or more passengers that year, than Ansett did the previous year, but Virgin had done it with far less staff!
Same issue, half of Virgins staff were contractors, not employees,were as virtually all Ansetts staff were employees!
You really need to know the total number of People working for the Airline, Employees, Contractors, Consultants alike to make a more meaningful
comparison.
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Boe787,
Absolutely agree that you need that information to make a meaningful comparison - and it means comparing any airline on raw numbers is very difficult.
Will also alter the coordinators, supervisors, managers / employees ratio.
as when using contractors you will have more people in the first category and less in the second.
MstrCaution,
Agree some departments would have been closed over Xmas and the company operated. Im sure the company worked for a few weeks without marketing and HR, but try that over the long term.
Probably even the documentation and OH&S department, lets get rid of them too... hmm maybe not, I think Tiger tried that before
The fact that Qantas continued to run with a substantial staff on holidays shows the appropriate planning and systems were in place, not that those people are expendable.
That said in my dealing there does seem to be an awful lot of middle managers at Qantas
Absolutely agree that you need that information to make a meaningful comparison - and it means comparing any airline on raw numbers is very difficult.
Will also alter the coordinators, supervisors, managers / employees ratio.
as when using contractors you will have more people in the first category and less in the second.
MstrCaution,
Agree some departments would have been closed over Xmas and the company operated. Im sure the company worked for a few weeks without marketing and HR, but try that over the long term.
Probably even the documentation and OH&S department, lets get rid of them too... hmm maybe not, I think Tiger tried that before
The fact that Qantas continued to run with a substantial staff on holidays shows the appropriate planning and systems were in place, not that those people are expendable.
That said in my dealing there does seem to be an awful lot of middle managers at Qantas
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Just to digress a bit...
Qantas was voted as having the best Economy Class, and having the best lounges. The much hated and bashed Jetstar scooped the best LCC award in Asia Pacific.
Airline Ratings
For all the problems Qantas are facing this is something everyone should happy and proud of. In all the wrongs the management has done, there's still something right. I'm sure Qantas can and will come out stronger.
Qantas was voted as having the best Economy Class, and having the best lounges. The much hated and bashed Jetstar scooped the best LCC award in Asia Pacific.
Airline Ratings
For all the problems Qantas are facing this is something everyone should happy and proud of. In all the wrongs the management has done, there's still something right. I'm sure Qantas can and will come out stronger.
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Airline Ratings is virtually an arm of the Qantas PR department. It's run by the channel 7 resident Aviation expert Geoffrey Thomas. I find him extremely biased and often simply just repeating rubbish from Qantas media releases without doing his own research.
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Take a look at Geoff's own profile on this website. He is referred to as the "go to man" in aviation, yeah right! 
Comparing average employee salaries between airlines like Qantas and Emirates et al is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want a true reflection of the relative costs split and compare pilots with pilots, engineers to engineers, cabin crew against cabin crew, ground handling staff to ground handling staff. Then a true picture will be formed.
I bet that most skilled employees costs/overall packages (especially the pilots) will be very similar to their overseas colleagues.
Comparing average employee salaries between airlines like Qantas and Emirates et al is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want a true reflection of the relative costs split and compare pilots with pilots, engineers to engineers, cabin crew against cabin crew, ground handling staff to ground handling staff. Then a true picture will be formed.
I bet that most skilled employees costs/overall packages (especially the pilots) will be very similar to their overseas colleagues.
I agree, as I said, the skilled workers will find their own level. Where Qantas costs are out of control are in the areas where you DON'T need to pay high wages (include managers there). I also agree that management have been bordering on negligent in their running of the airline over the past few years.
The concept of Jetstar was a valid one to give Qantas a market share in the low cost sector preventing Virgin from dominating that area (it worked, Virgin gave up and decided at great cost to reposition back to full service).
Where they failed is that while they developed Jetstar they have allowed Qantas to flounder with old equipment and flawed route strategies. It is a shame as Qantas had a great brand to develop, there was no reason why both entities couldn't exist and compliment each other. I
The concept of Jetstar was a valid one to give Qantas a market share in the low cost sector preventing Virgin from dominating that area (it worked, Virgin gave up and decided at great cost to reposition back to full service).
Where they failed is that while they developed Jetstar they have allowed Qantas to flounder with old equipment and flawed route strategies. It is a shame as Qantas had a great brand to develop, there was no reason why both entities couldn't exist and compliment each other. I
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I had a very interesting and cordial private exchange with Geoffrey a year or two ago about my experiences as a QF mainline pilot.
The only conclusion I could reach was that he's utterly and comprehensively disinterested in anything other than what is written on the script he gets from Alan or Olivia (irrespective of whether it's true, or demonstrably false).
The only conclusion I could reach was that he's utterly and comprehensively disinterested in anything other than what is written on the script he gets from Alan or Olivia (irrespective of whether it's true, or demonstrably false).
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It's hard to deny that Jetstar in it's true form as a LCC in the Aussie market was a good idea and was a successful strategy for the group when it was launched.
But the Jetstar we have today is a Hybrid semi full service airline that is to expensive to compete with Tiger and substandard to compete with Virgin.
So all it does now is just cannibalise mainline flying to the detriment of group yields and overall profitability.
Add to this the "Mcdonalds" style franchising of these asian Jetstar ideologies and the whole orange dream looks more like a financial nightmare for Qantas.
Ultimately the government will step in, it would be to politically damaging not to considering the alternative of having 33,000 employees joining the Dole queue and a large part of Australia's history disappear overnight (sorry to the Ansett guys, should also have happened in 2001 as well). But by then our illustrious irish leader will have parachuted out with cash dripping out his pockets while the loyal staff will be left to take pay cuts and freezes to help restore what has been deliberately destroyed.
God help the next mob and their employees this guy moves on to, wouldn't wish him on my worst enemies!
No surprises there. 
But the Jetstar we have today is a Hybrid semi full service airline that is to expensive to compete with Tiger and substandard to compete with Virgin.
So all it does now is just cannibalise mainline flying to the detriment of group yields and overall profitability.
Add to this the "Mcdonalds" style franchising of these asian Jetstar ideologies and the whole orange dream looks more like a financial nightmare for Qantas.
Ultimately the government will step in, it would be to politically damaging not to considering the alternative of having 33,000 employees joining the Dole queue and a large part of Australia's history disappear overnight (sorry to the Ansett guys, should also have happened in 2001 as well). But by then our illustrious irish leader will have parachuted out with cash dripping out his pockets while the loyal staff will be left to take pay cuts and freezes to help restore what has been deliberately destroyed.
God help the next mob and their employees this guy moves on to, wouldn't wish him on my worst enemies!
I had a very interesting and cordial private exchange with Geoffrey a year or two ago about my experiences as a QF mainline pilot.
The only conclusion I could reach was that he's utterly and comprehensively disinterested in anything other than what is written on the script he gets from Alan or Olivia (irrespective of whether it's true, or demonstrably false).
The only conclusion I could reach was that he's utterly and comprehensively disinterested in anything other than what is written on the script he gets from Alan or Olivia (irrespective of whether it's true, or demonstrably false).
The obsession that a lot of Qantas staff have with Jetstar is just a convenient distraction from the reality that Qantas is way to expensive in the modern airline market.
it would be to politically damaging not to considering the alternative of having 33,000 employees joining the Dole queue and a large part of Australia's history disappear overnight
A pox on all pollies
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Joe smells the rat...
Qantas Is Probably Paying A Lot Of Attention To This Joe Hockey Interview | Business Insider
Qantas Is Probably Paying A Lot Of Attention To This Joe Hockey Interview
Ben Collins Today at 6:42 AM
Australia’s Treasurer Joe Hockey has told The Australian the Government is not interested in subsidising unprofitable companies.
The comments come after Holden and Ford decided they would close their factories in Australia despite receiving millions in taxpayer-funded assistance.
Qantas is the next company vying for some government help, with speculation it wants its debt guaranteed. Changes to ownership laws and a taxpayer investment have also been raised.
And keep it in mind he’s not ruling out an assistance package, to any company, though the language represents an increasingly hardline stance.
And as The Australian’s article points out, Coalition sources have expressed frustration that Qantas boss Alan Joyce has brought his problems to the Government.
A deal to help the national carrier has not been announced, though Qantas has outlined a strategy which will see it streamline its operations and cut a number of jobs.
There is also speculation today in the Australian Financial Review that its lucrative Frequent Flyer program could be floated. All of which would certainly count as the “restructure of the company.”
There’s more here.
Ben Collins Today at 6:42 AM
Australia’s Treasurer Joe Hockey has told The Australian the Government is not interested in subsidising unprofitable companies.
The comments come after Holden and Ford decided they would close their factories in Australia despite receiving millions in taxpayer-funded assistance.
Qantas is the next company vying for some government help, with speculation it wants its debt guaranteed. Changes to ownership laws and a taxpayer investment have also been raised.
“We need to go through their balance sheets with a fine-tooth comb to ensure that when there is a cheque from taxpayers it’s going toward the restructuring of the company rather than just simply propping up shareholder returns.
“But that is a last resort. The starting point is we are not in the business of subsidising commerce.”
Hockey is not referring to Qantas specifically, though it is public knowledge the airline approached the Government for help. “But that is a last resort. The starting point is we are not in the business of subsidising commerce.”
And keep it in mind he’s not ruling out an assistance package, to any company, though the language represents an increasingly hardline stance.
And as The Australian’s article points out, Coalition sources have expressed frustration that Qantas boss Alan Joyce has brought his problems to the Government.
A deal to help the national carrier has not been announced, though Qantas has outlined a strategy which will see it streamline its operations and cut a number of jobs.
There is also speculation today in the Australian Financial Review that its lucrative Frequent Flyer program could be floated. All of which would certainly count as the “restructure of the company.”
There’s more here.
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Aviation expert Geoffrey Thomas
Also, is 'airlineratings.com' some sort of new start up mouthpiece for the Qantas PR department? I just cant seem to work it out. I told someone yesterday that Qantas had just won the 'airlineratings.com' award for having the best economy in the universe. They stared blankly at me and I mentioned it was some website run by 'The West Australian'.
Originally Posted by Going Boeing
Jetstar Domestic in Oz may be able to stand on its own
I can't help thinking big Al nicked his strategy from an old Telco bloke
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it would be to politically damaging not to considering the alternative of having 33,000 employees joining the Dole queue and a large part of Australia's history disappear overnight
The reality, as opposed to the emotive rhetoric from the ACTU et al, is that the demand for travel will not collapse along with Qantas. The demand will remain and will be met by other entities who will need to employ probably 20,000 of the 33,000 that may lose their jobs, and that would probably be about right. That's what it will take to get the fat out of Qantas and make it competitive. It will happen one way or the other. Either Joyce (or more likely his replacement) is going to take the razor to the place or it will go broke and out of the ashes will rise a stronger replacement, which may, or may not, carry the Qantas brand.
The reality, as opposed to the emotive rhetoric from the ACTU et al, is that the demand for travel will not collapse along with Qantas. The demand will remain and will be met by other entities
This Ford guy sums it up pretty well:
THE global boss of car giant Ford has warned the Australian economy will suffer "in the long term" with the loss of its auto manufacturing sector.
With Ford and Holden announcing factory shutdowns in 2016 and 2017, and with Toyota likely to follow in 2018, Australia's entire automotive manufacturing base - which employs in excess of 50,000 workers - is destined to collapse, with little hope of a revival.
At an open forum on day two of the Detroit motor show, Ford chief Alan Mulally was asked by a university student about the importance of government assistance in manufacturing.
"No country is ever successful in the long term … without a really strong and vibrant manufacturing base," said Mr Mulally.
"It's the foundation of all economic development. You actually make things that create value. That's why every country around the world is collaborating with the private sector … to figure out how to create an environment where manufacturing (is viable)."
Nineteen of the G20 nations have vehicle manufacturing industries but that figure will fall to 18 once the car industry shuts its doors in Australia.
The industry estimates at least $10 billion in economic activity would be wiped from Australia each year once car manufacturing ceases.
Early in Holden's campaign for an increase in government assistance last year, Holden boss Mike Devereux told News Corp that Australia needed to decide if it was content to simply become "a farm, a hotel and a quarry", referring to agriculture, tourism and mining as the big industries once manufacturing dies.
Yesterday, Mr Mulally said 70 per cent of all the research and development in advanced technology and investment is associated with manufacturing, and it was the "foundation of wealth creation".
"You create value and you create jobs," he said.
When asked if this meant Australia was "doomed", Mr Mulally said: "I don't know about that word, but clearly Australia is going where it's going. And what Australia's done with their (low import) tariffs and what they've done (reducing) support of their industry ..."
With Ford and Holden announcing factory shutdowns in 2016 and 2017, and with Toyota likely to follow in 2018, Australia's entire automotive manufacturing base - which employs in excess of 50,000 workers - is destined to collapse, with little hope of a revival.
At an open forum on day two of the Detroit motor show, Ford chief Alan Mulally was asked by a university student about the importance of government assistance in manufacturing.
"No country is ever successful in the long term … without a really strong and vibrant manufacturing base," said Mr Mulally.
"It's the foundation of all economic development. You actually make things that create value. That's why every country around the world is collaborating with the private sector … to figure out how to create an environment where manufacturing (is viable)."
Nineteen of the G20 nations have vehicle manufacturing industries but that figure will fall to 18 once the car industry shuts its doors in Australia.
The industry estimates at least $10 billion in economic activity would be wiped from Australia each year once car manufacturing ceases.
Early in Holden's campaign for an increase in government assistance last year, Holden boss Mike Devereux told News Corp that Australia needed to decide if it was content to simply become "a farm, a hotel and a quarry", referring to agriculture, tourism and mining as the big industries once manufacturing dies.
Yesterday, Mr Mulally said 70 per cent of all the research and development in advanced technology and investment is associated with manufacturing, and it was the "foundation of wealth creation".
"You create value and you create jobs," he said.
When asked if this meant Australia was "doomed", Mr Mulally said: "I don't know about that word, but clearly Australia is going where it's going. And what Australia's done with their (low import) tariffs and what they've done (reducing) support of their industry ..."
