Stop Pilot Skills going on the Shortage list. Your help required.

[URCleared]

Pretty sure the email address information is provided in the form.
If it says written only then scan the letter and email that.

[Fruet Mich]

URCleared,

Have you posted this on the General Aviation forum? These are the guys that need to submit their form.

[URCleared]

You can't do dual running threads. Message a moderator and see if a sticky can go up there perhaps?

[lilflyboy262...2]

Thank you for that blinding insight rmcdonal.
Remind me why a foriegn pilot with 500hrs and an arts degree should get employed over citizens with 3000hrs but no degree?
Had I had a useless degree I wouldn't have to write my atpls.

[Mail-man]

Doesn't our (aus) job market already have 457 visa's along with kiwi pilots?

[URCleared]

Yes it does.
Australia only grants a very small amount of 457 Visa for Pilots, and does not have Pilot Skills on its ISSL either.
By the look of the submission NZ has also already granted a small amount of Visas on the basis of Pilot Skills too; can't fathom why!
The difference is, by adding Pilot Skills to the shortage list it makes it that much -easier- for Immigration to grant the Visas.

[Mstr Caution]

I just read a Ben Sandilands article on how the Australian ATSB has just completed a report stating that an experienced pilot is no more safe than a less experienced pilot.

To extrapolate that further, how could there be a skills shortage when experience doesn't produce a "safer" pilot?

Tell the likes of Air NZ to employ local qualified pilots or ramp up their cadet program.

Problem is airline bean counters want pilots to pay their own way thru pilot training. If the foreign pilot option is knocked on the head, it may force airlines to provide or subsidise cadet pilot training for local aspiring pilots like they use to.

MC.

[flyboy_nz]

Im an ex RAAF pilot with over 2000 fast jet hours. It took over two years to get an airline job in Australia. None of the airlines have a shortage of pilots, they just want to employ as cheaply as possible regardless of skills. Fact.

Wow! Really sad to hear.

Thank you for that blinding insight rmcdonal.
Remind me why a foriegn pilot with 500hrs and an arts degree should get employed over citizens with 3000hrs but no degree?
Had I had a useless degree I wouldn't have to write my atpls.

2600 hrs TT, 1000 hrs PIC & RPT including mountain and short strip experience in SE turbine in Indonesia and Papua. Still waiting for Air NZ... Oh wait, because I don't have ATPLs, my experience is not good enough.

Don't you worry, me and my real and imaginary friends are all submitting that form.

[URCleared]

Lets be honest, if Air NZ opened up recruitment to cut off Link Pilots from the Jets, then they'd just create another problem. They'll lose Pilots to overseas carriers just as quickly as they import them.

So its to take on pilots with 500hrs?

There are a lot of pissed of pilots out there with Air NZ, not only those that had to go overseas because of the Supply/Demand issue at the time and the Space Shuttle requirements, or those that were discriminated against when they returned because of the overseas experience they had (go figure on that one), but also those with experience out there right now not even being called up (which would fix your described upgradable FO issue) . Nevermind the actual recruitment process that is in place. - Does flipping a piece of paper and shouting at Interviewees really get you the best pilots up front? If ANZ is so utterly desperate that you want Pilot Skills on the ISSL surely before that the first thing to do is to cut out some of this Psychological screening garbage out of the interview process. It still doesn't impinge on your Hours and other requirements, pick up the ruddy phone and start calling pilots with applications meeting the experience level, instead of picking and choosing the shiney apples.
Hey it's your train set play it as you see fit, however the job market is also ours!

There's a few Career Link drivers sure, but most of today's Pilots want a Jet Job. Preferably with a Koru on the tail, and are willing to wait for it, but if that door gets closed to them....

Why is there any DESO hiring taking place at all if you have so many Link Pilots waiting? Sure you can't bleed the experience level from the Links, but seems to me you are setting yourselves up for just the very thing you say you are trying to avoid (which happened not too long ago if I recall). All at the price of the antiquated Seniority System. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the Link and Jet seniority systems are mixed yet?

while guys who have been around nearly 2 years still haven't finished their subjects

Didn't there used to be a termination clause for this situation with a 2yr limit?
Or was that just folklore

[gearupmaxpower]

Submissions can be made by email. For details, go to:

Review of the Essential Skills in Demand Lists

Personally, I think this is important enough to make a submission on - especially as it is my belief that there are many New Zealanders overseas that would gladly return to NZ if able. It is also my firm belief that their figures regarding the number of available pilots are pure fantasy.

Having said that, any submissions should be made in an unemotional and factual way. Any submissions made up of emotional, scaremongering and rambling type contents will be disregarded and only strengthen the case for the occupation to be added to the list.

Even just a submission along the lines of 'I am a New Zealand pilot overseas who would gladly return to NZ if the opportunity arises' is better than nothing(if you feel that way, of course). It builds up the numbers of people who DO feel that way rather than just saying that you think the are many pilots who you believe would return to NZ. Clear as mud?

As for minimum qualifications, UE and ATPL's have been around for a while and, quite frankly, are a fair minimum.

[URCleared]

So its to take on pilots with 500hrs?
Into the Links yes.

Ahaa, tell us more about the idea of bringing in 500hrs pilots from overseas all the while the training industry in NZ pumps out another 200 pilots per year.

As for guys not getting called, there's a lot more to it than just Hours, always has been, always will be. Hours just get your CV looked at... if all that counted was experience, we wouldn't have interviews. Sometimes if you scratch the surface, you realize that your "experienced mate" dropped out of School, failed multiple CPL/IR exams, took 3 attempts at their CPL and has a few incidents on file. None of that instills confidence in an Airline. Not meaning to offend, just a reality of the industry how our past failings can come back to haunt us.

Then surely these 'other concerns' ARE part of why you have an interview to address this, instead of thinking up the worst case and believing it without even talking to the person. I don't see any space in the online form that specifically asks for any extraneous life situations to be explained that could contribute to some of these things happening. Air NZ is clearly not so desperate as they make out.
Clearly an avenue here to interview more pilots.
Point noted not to declare incidents. Tell me, what happens to the pilots involved in Incidents on the job within Air NZ, do they keep their job?

As for the Recruit to group process, I do hear it's rather over the top, but from my understanding a lot of it is fluff. They seem to be able to look past "poor results" in most things other than the Sim and Interview. Don't quote me on that, just what I've been told.

Perhaps the poor result in the sim and interview is because the Pilot can't fathom the stupidity and unprofessional aspects of the selection days. It stinks of ideas from people trying to justify their job in HR.
It's as much us looking at you as you looking at us.
Another avenue to widen the filter to say yes to more pilots.

[Jagdfalke]

800 hours TT
500 PIC
BGT, MEIR, etc.

I also have an undergraduate degree.


I meet/exceed the entry requirements, and like every other pilot and his dog, I have applied for Air NZ link and have yet to even hear back. So i'm currently residing in Aus - the weather here is nice. I think i'll stay.

I also personally know 3 other (former) pilots who meet those requirements but have since moved onto other things. I guess not everybody can wait around forever. The smart ones leave and move onto bigger and better things - the rest of us become pilots - eventually.

[Ollie Onion]

I love it, I have JAA ATPL / NZ ATPL / CASA ATPL with 9000 tt, 1500 DC8, 7000 A320, 5000 PIC etc etc, LLb (hons) and first applied to Air NZ back in 2003 trying to get back to NZ. At one stage was contacted for an interview which was then postponed due to one of the many stops in recruitment. Haven't heard from them again now for about 5 years, so I stayed overseas. I would be absolutely shocked if Air NZ couldn't hustle up enough pilots from GA, the Links or any of the numerous expats who want to come home.

[gearupmaxpower]

Submit, submit, submit....

Which is why we need as many pilots as possible, especially overseas based pilots who have a wish to return to NZ, to make at least a minimal submission to that effect. Immigration need to be flooded with emails so they get an idea of how many pilots would like the opportunity to repatriate.

Even just submitting an email putting forward a wish to return to NZ is better than sitting on your backside doing nothing. A quick summary of your experience would be good. That will show just how much experience is not only out there, but being blatantly and conveniently ignored by the airlines in NZ, not to mention in Immigration NZ's research.

It is my belief this is one job you can NEVER be overqualified for. Don't get attitude mixed up with experience - they are two very different beasts when it comes to getting a job.

Again, I urge all of you to make a submission. If our profession goes on to the list, it will be very difficult and a lengthy process to get it off. Ten minutes of your time can't be that difficult.

Also remember the TTRMA already allows overseas based pilots to join NZ airlines.

[Luke SkyToddler]

On a partially related note I see in this week's Flight International that Air NZ is running a big recruitment advert for sim instructors, no mention is made of requiring the right to live & work in NZ. I wonder if they've already got a "skills shortage" exemption for that one? I would have thought there'd be plenty of age 65 or lost-their-medical guys who'd be up for that?

[D check]

The GAA (General Aviation Advocacy Group of New Zealand) has taken an interest in this submission to add to the perceived skills shortage list for NZ.

For those that are interested in making a submission but don't know how or are unsure of what to do the below message from GAA will assist you in being heard.

Please contact Des directly on the email address provided if you wish to join the submission.



GAA is prepared to help those who don’t feel sufficiently confident, to put in their own individual submission. We will put in a submission and attach your names as co-submitters.



If you wish us to do this, you need to email Des Lines at [email protected]and request that your name be added as a co-submitter. It would be helpful if your email also contains your personal views and experiences in trying to get a flying job within NZ and if you have had to go offshore to find employment.



An indication of whether you currently meet the criteria and the Air NZ Group requirements, or if you are currently working to gain them, would also be helpful information. These comments will be attached as an Appendix to the submission.

[kiwiCj6]

D Check, You may find that candidates in the recruit to group system awaiting an interview would rather remain anonymous.


Yes what is happening is wrong and absurd.
I personally know more than 8 people that far exceed Air NZ Minimums and No calls or interviews.

[flyboy_nz]

Windnz, it's a lot easier than done to say to someone 'go get your ATPLs done asap'.

Some of us are based overseas, myself in Indonesia and Papua. Time for me is the biggest factor. Getting three weeks off at a time can be a hassle, especially as I am planning to take time off for family matters. The other factor is being the cost of multiple trips back home while saving up for a type-rating at the same time.

I can not put all eggs in one basket and use up my annual leave and spend my savings on ATPLs just to QUALIFY for an interview with Air NZ which might not happen. Especially, when around the corner I can spend the same money and my leave on a type-rating on a jet and get a jet job right away without any ATPLs.

It might not be fair, it might seem unjust, but plenty of Pilots are getting called and accepted.

Good for them. That's the entire point of this thread, stop this profession from going on the shortage list when there's plenty of us meeting the requirements for the job but still waiting for an interview.

[URCleared]

A big thank you to General Aviation Advocacy Group of New Zealand for coming on board and your offer, I think that will make it a lot easier for many. I encourage Pilots to take advantage of this.


flyboy_nz makes a good point.
It makes me think of another idea, how many more CPLs from the past that gave up due to the job situation would come out of the woodwork and do an interview if they could defer getting their qualifications current until after interview and a 'yes'? This would remove any barriers to applying for them, it's alot cheaper to get some time in a aeroclub sim and up to speed for the Interview sim ride than the whole IR renewal. The time to actually starting the Type Rating seems to be several months post interview anyway, so no problems there.
Another avenue for more pilots.

Perhaps an IT qualified Pilot person would like to offer their services and sort out the Database for Air NZ for them.
Suggested improvements would be a change in status for when the application has at least been looked at, and an email reply (even if its a template one), if your application is rejected. -So at least we know!

[intake]

People, if ANZ has a requirement for ATPL subjects/ Lic as part of their list of qualifications and you don't have them it means you don't qualify. Quite simple really, go get your subjects/ licence. "Can't get time off to do the exams" or "I'll get them once you give me a start" etc is just BS.
PS: I don't think any country needs to put pilots on the " skills shortage" list.
Good luck to those applying