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Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing

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Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing

Old 28th Jun 2013, 03:02
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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They probably did not give a Mayday call because the pilot in command did not believe that they were in "grave and imminent danger" so how about we leave that alone, yelling from the sidelines is so easy.

Landing with less than FR, mmm, MOST fuel policies only say how much one must PLAN to land with. Therefore if you land with less than FR it is quite possibly not an offence, merely a cause for reporting and explanation. Before you jump down my throat about this sacred cow, please post a reference to where it says the aircraft MUST land with FR intact.

I think this thread has run it's course in the absence of any new information.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 04:15
  #282 (permalink)  
34R
 
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Did the QF crew request to land first due their impending low fuel state?

What is more interesting is the QF side of this story. Did they break minimums when they landed? Did they have less than their FR when they did land? If they did, did they declare a fuel emergency? If they didn't, why did they break minimums (if they in fact did)?
No accusations here, just questions, that to date have all been leveled at the VA crew.
I'm sure there is more to follow.

Last edited by 34R; 28th Jun 2013 at 04:22.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 04:33
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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VOZ 1384 departed 17/2035 flight planned arrival YPAD 17/2247 Flight history
QFA 735 departed 17/2109 flight planned arrival YPAD 17/2300 Flight history


sunrise approx 17/2152 (0722 CST source SA Gov )

************************************************************ **
Weather Chrological order
Times UTC
TAF in BLUE from 17/0000
SPECI in RED, METAR in BLACK from 17/1700

************************************************************ *********
17/06/2013 05:16-> TAF YPAD 170516Z 1706/1812 22008KT 9999 -SHRA SCT030 FM171100 VRB05KT 9999 SCT030 FM180000 14006KT 9999 FEW030 RMK

17/06/2013 11:04-> TAF YPAD 171104Z 1712/1818 VRB05KT 9999 SCT030

17/06/2013 17:03-> TAF YPAD 171703Z 1718/1824 VRB05KT 9999

17/06/2013 17:30-> METAR YPAD 171730Z 03006KT 9999 FEW022 06/05 Q1018 NOSIG

17/06/2013 18:00-> METAR YPAD 171800Z 06005KT 9999 FEW022 05/05 Q1018 NOSIG

17/06/2013 18:30-> METAR YPAD 171830Z 09005KT 9999 FEW022 05/05 Q1018 NOSIG

17/06/2013 19:00-> METAR YPAD 171900Z 07004KT 9999 FEW022 05/04 Q1018 NOSIG

17/06/2013 19:30-> METAR YPAD 171930Z 04005KT 9999 FEW022 06/05 Q1019 NOSIG

************************************************************ **
PRE-FLIGHT BRIEFING
************************************************************ **

17/06/2013 20:00-> METAR YPAD 172000Z 06004KT 9999 FEW022 05/04 Q1019 NOSIG

17/06/2013 20:30-> METAR YPAD 172030Z 08005KT 9999 FEW022 05/05 Q1019 NOSIG

************************************************************ **
VOZ 1387 AIRBOURNE 17/2035
************************************************************ **
17/06/2013 21:00-> TAF AMD YPAD 172100Z 1721/1824 05005KT 9999 FEW025 FM180000 VRB05KT 9999 FEW030 SCT045 FM181000 VRB05KT CAVOK PROB30 1721/1724 0500 FG RMK

17/06/2013 21:00-> METAR YPAD 172100Z 05004KT 9999 FEW022 05/05 Q1019 NOSIG

************************************************************ **
QFA 735 AIRBOURNE 17/2109
************************************************************ **
17/06/2013 21:11-> SPECI YPAD 172111Z 06005KT 9999 MIFG FEW022 SCT058 05/05 Q1020 NOSIG

17/06/2013 21:30-> METAR YPAD 172130Z 06004KT 9999 MIFG FEW022 05/04 Q1020 NOSIG

17/06/2013 21:30-> SPECI YPAD 172130Z 06004KT 9999 MIFG FEW022 05/04 Q1020 NOSIG

17/06/2013 22:00-> SPECI YPAD 172200Z 01006KT 9999 1000NW PRFG MIFG FEW022 05/05 Q1020 FM2200 01005KT 0500 FG FM2300 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 22:05-> SPECI YPAD 172205Z 01006KT 2000 0500N FG FEW022 05/04 Q1020 FM2205 01005KT 0500 FG FM2300 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 22:15-> SPECI YPAD 172215Z 02006KT 0500 0250N FG OVC001 05/04 Q1020 FM2300 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 22:30-> SPECI YPAD 172230Z 04005KT 0150 FG OVC001 06/05 Q1020 FM2300 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 22:30-> METAR YPAD 172230Z 04005KT 0150 FG OVC001 06/05 Q1020 FM2300 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 23:00-> SPECI YPAD 172300Z 04006KT 0150 FG OVC000 06/06 Q1021 FM2330 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 23:00-> TAF AMD YPAD 180122Z 1801/1906 01005KT 0800 FG FM180200 VRB05KT 9999 FEW030 SCT045 FM181000 VRB05KT CAVOK FM190000 04008KT CAVOK

17/06/2013 23:00-> METAR YPAD 172300Z 04006KT 0150 FG OVC000 06/06 Q1021 FM2330 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 23:02-> TAF YPAD 172302Z 1800/1906 VRB05KT 9999 FEW030 SCT045 FM181000 VRB05KT CAVOK FM190000 04008KT CAVOK

17/06/2013 23:30-> SPECI YPAD 172330Z 04005KT 0150 FG OVC000 07/07 Q1021 FM2400 05005KT 9999 FEW025

17/06/2013 23:53-> TAF AMD YPAD 172353Z 1800/1906 02004KT 0500 FG FM180100 VRB05KT 9999 FEW030 SCT045 FM181000 VRB05KT CAVOK FM190000 04008KT CAVOK RMK
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 04:50
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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Thats pretty thorough FYSTI.

From your info it appears that Virgin diverted at 2306Z and QF diverted at 2315Z.

Do you have the METARS for Mildura at that time?

Would be interesting to see.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 04:51
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Cool Wait and see

Algie & Bloggs

tenretni @ #293, well you could take that perspective , but I merely took it as the outline of an investigation - look at all of the likely issues and the worst case interactions, then eliminate each possibility with the evidence

our real problem is that even if the investigator in charge lifts up the rocks and chases all the mice that scuttle away, will the Beakercrats let any of it see the light of day? We already know that they have taken "death by deferral" to new heights and that the fate of each crew will depend on how the Skull thinks it should have gone down, no one else!

Framer,

the work that pilots need to complete in that hour between sign on and pushback
does the new CAO 48.1 Instrument 2013 say anything about minimum sign-on and sign-off times? I wonder what the secret internal CASA guidance is on that one - after all, each operator has certain "obligations" which will be individually accepted by the friendly FOI nearest to you, oops sorry - nearest to your boss

And just to show that the great god ICAO doesn't always get it right, have a look at the advance copy of Doc 9976 Flight Planning and Fuel Management Manual and see if and how it would have helped

Last edited by Prince Niccolo M; 28th Jun 2013 at 05:00. Reason: overlapping posts
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 06:31
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Bloggs & Algie..,,,,.. ... It is always easier to be clear with a defined subject. I know; (I know) - some stuff is 'cryptic', it just has to be, to avoid the slings and arrows etc.; but on this subject, I thought plain speaking would suffice. There are some questions here which are deep, subtle, prompted by a rarely seen set of circumstances; but, they do need answers – if we are to avoid a repetition. Someone (Framer ?) mentioned that it's rare for all the holes to line up; bit like one of those one armed bandits (poker machine things), rare to get 4 or 5 of a kind, but it does happen, from time to time. Except in this game, four lemons is not a jackpot, more like winning lotto – only in reverse. So, I meant no offence, indeed I'll lead the charge (or hold the jackets) if this gets whipped, spun, parlayed, bullied or coerced into being a strictly pilot error, one horse race.

Prince Nick – one can only hope the ATSBeaker troops are in open rebellion and insisting on being allowed to do the job. Looks like a job well done on the QF32 report; I expect it won't please everyone but, it's a great improvement over some of the previous efforts. Perhaps because there was no requirement or need to allow the report to be Wodgered.

Right, off to the pub then.....

Last edited by Kharon; 28th Jun 2013 at 06:34.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:06
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if its been posted here but the Sun has an article about the Virgin jet committing to the approach, as they only had 800kg of fuel on board and could not do a go around.
I read somewhere (can't remember exactly where, one of the newspapers I think) that they had actually dumped fuel, otherwise they were too heavy to land at Mildura.

DF.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:12
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Well it is the first Maggot in the world that is capable of dumping fuel!!
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:15
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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It's true, the Flight Engineer told me.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:16
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Beat me to it!
I'm sure there'd be a picture somewhere in the media of a 737 dumping fuel though. A special 4 engined one too probably.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 15:54
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Iccy2001
They probably did not give a Mayday call because the pilot in command did not believe that they were in "grave and imminent danger" so how about we leave that alone
Better have a re-read of AIP, Iccy, in particular ENR 1.1 60.6.1. The word "shall" being the operative one.

Do you have the METARS for Mildura at that time?
Weather History for Mildura, #HISTORY.statename | Weather Underground
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 23:18
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Minutes between hero and zero!

Just released Spanish aircraft accident investigation board (CIAIC) ‘Final Report’ into Ryanair low fuel emergency into Valencia, Spain in May 2010 is well worth the read!

From ‘Aviation Safety Network’ (Flight Safety Foundation) article:
The Spanish aircraft accident investigation board CIAIAC published the final report of their investigation into a low fuel incident involving a Ryanair flight at Valencia, Spain in May 2010. Four similar low fuel emergencies in July 2012 were also considered in the investigation.
On 14 May 2010, a Ryanair Boeing 737-800 flying from London-Stansted , UK to Alicante, Spain, was forced to make a go-around due to meteorological conditions (windshear). The crew then tried a new approach but the wind conditions were similar and the crew decided to divert to Valencia. They stated urgency (PAN-PAN) due to the fact that they were below the final fuel reserve and then, when they were in approach, they stated emergency (MAYDAY) and carried out an uneventful landing at Valencia. The fuel quantity was checked to be below final reserve fuel.
On 26th July 2012 thunderstorms occurred in the vicinity of Madrid Airport that forced ATC to divert twelve flights towards Valencia Airport. Four of these twelve flights declared emergency due to problems with fuel, when they were in approach to Valencia Airport. One was a LAN Chile flight, three were Ryanair flights. The LAN Chile and one Ryanair plane landed with a fuel amount below the final reserve.
Given the similarity with the 2010 incident, CIAIAC decided to incorporate them into the ongoing 2010 incident investigation.
CIAIAC concluded that:
“The incident was caused by the crew’s inadequate decision-making process in opting to make a second approach, in the choice of alternate airport and in the flight parameters used en route to that airport, which resulted in the fuel amount dropping below the required minimum reserve fuel and in the crew declaring an emergency (MAYDAY).
The company’s fuel savings policy, though it complies with the minimum legal requirements, tends to minimize the amount of fuel with which its airplanes operate and leaves none for contingencies below the legal minimums. This contributed to the amount of fuel used being improperly planned and to the amount of fuel onboard dropping below the required final fuel reserve.
Another contributing factor was the wind information provided by ATC to the crew when preparing the approach to runway 28. This information, though accurate, did not give the crew a clear picture of the changing wind conditions, which would have facilitated their making more suitable decisions.”

Six safety recommendations were issued:
  1. It is recommended that AENA Air Navigation establish the necessary measures and procedures to facilitate the crews, by means of ATIS, the relevant and significant information that may be associated to sudden changes reported by aircraft, or those not important enough to have originated an SPECI O TREND, this way helping them to prepare their approaches and to take their decisions in the most appropriate way.
  2. It is recommended that Ryanair modify its Operational Flight Plan to show the real time and fuel data calculated for any alternate, regardless of its proximity, and the optimum parameters used in said calculations, so that these data may be referenced by its crews.
  3. It is recommended that Ryanair revise its Operations Manual to clarify the situations in which to declare urgency and emergency.
  4. It is recommended that Ryanair introduce as part of its practices and procedures that, at least when operating outside domestic airspace, and especially in emergency situations, its crews speak English adapted to the so-called “operational level”, using standard phraseology as much as possible and speaking slowly and clearly enough so that they may be easily understood by all of the parties involved.
  5. It is recommended that the ICAO clarify and standardize the use of the PAN PAN and MAYDAY terminology in urgency and emergency declarations in Annex 2 (Rules of the Air), Annex 6 (Aircraft Operations) and Annex 10 (Aeronautical Telecommunications) so that the entire aviation community can use common criteria.
  6. It is recommended that the ICAO reconsider the text in Section 4.3,7 of Annex 6 resulting from Amendment 36 in terms of both adapting the fuel-related emergency declarations to the generic emergency declarations listed in Annex 2 (Rules of the air) and Annex 10 (aeronautical Telecommunications), and of avoiding having the improper use of the “Minimum Fuel” status become a routine declaration in an effort to obtain better information or preferential treatment from ATC.
More information:
Here’s hoping the ATSB do a comparable job to the Spanish and perhaps also generate some equally good ‘safety recommendations’…although they may have to get rid of Beaker before that happens!
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 05:25
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Herald Sun said RNAV is a kind of computer. 10/10 fact checking
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 05:43
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fl610
Well it is the first Maggot in the world that is capable of dumping fuel!!
Nah, ive dumped fuel before this
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 05:54
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Herald Sun said RNAV is a kind of computer.
That's almost a stupid as the abbreviation of RNAV for Area Nav.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 06:51
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin should take action for deformation - "Landing with low fuel" is just something the uneducated journalists always throw around with aviation.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 06:57
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin would take deformation action for a heavy landing, not low fuel.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 07:48
  #298 (permalink)  
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Why did both crews not throw on 'gas for Mum'?
Maybe the Virgin aircrew did just that. Arrived at Mildura to find Qantas asking for the first go because of low fuel. Virgin agrees because they have "gas for mum"

Virgin hold until Qantas lands and clears the runway and then start their approach.

In the meantime the fog gets thicker and so carrying "gas for mum" has painted them into a corner.

And here we are, with 20/20 hindsight, trying to second guess what two crew did based on information presented to them.

As a matter of interest, how many times in OZ have RPT jet aircraft been forced to land in weather conditions that have been below the minimums or non normal conditions (night, etc) after having used all the flight fuel and their variable fuel.

Before this, I can think of at least 4.

Last edited by 601; 29th Jun 2013 at 07:49.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 08:51
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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Addendum post #309


From post #309:
Here’s hoping the ATSB do a comparable job to the Spanish and perhaps also generate some equally good ‘safety recommendations’…although they may have to get rid of Beaker before that happens!
On the subject of safety recommendations (mentioned above) it would appear that in the Valencia incident REC 22/13 has led to ICAO amending Annex 6 'In-flight fuel management' (amendment 36 Part 1 subpara 4.3.7).

This was in order to get rid of the ambiguity on when to declare a PAN (urgency) or MAYDAY (distress) in the case of in-flight fuel emergencies. {Page 69 of the CIAIAC Incident Report IN-010/2010}

Which from certain parts of this thread appears to have been somewhat of an issue in the VA incident at YMIA. Irony or different interpretation? Either way the issue has morphed half way round the world!

It is also highlights the value of ICAO compliant aircraft accident investigation bodies adhering to the principles of promulgating safety recommendations (unlike the Beakerised methodology) when serious safety issues are noted while conducting incident/accident investigations!
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 09:05
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Cream puff
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