Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: deepest darkest recess of your mind
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What policy are you asking about? The captains I fly with decide what they want. If it happens to fit the policy, then great. If it doesn't, then stiff ****. Never heard any of them being questioned on it.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the one that says its ok to depart without a plan b
didnt think it was that cryptic. Ive been reading the thread akro
didnt think it was that cryptic. Ive been reading the thread akro
Last edited by waren9; 3rd Jul 2013 at 12:01.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Porch monkey, agreed. A decent Captain will consider company requests and plan his flight considering both safety and economic requirements. However, a decent Captain will tell Flight Ops to jam it up their ass if he decides additional fuel is required, especially if the BOM can't be trusted as is becoming more and more apparent.
I'm sick to death of hearing about 'operational pressure', 'the high cost of a barrel of oil', and the bean counters sitting in a basement telling me how much fuel I need! To them I say 'thanks for the assistance, your intent is well noted', but it is my aircraft, my passengers and my responsibility, so stick your calculators, abacus and lucky rabbits foot where the sun don't shine because I decide how much fuel I need. Full stop.
I'm sick to death of hearing about 'operational pressure', 'the high cost of a barrel of oil', and the bean counters sitting in a basement telling me how much fuel I need! To them I say 'thanks for the assistance, your intent is well noted', but it is my aircraft, my passengers and my responsibility, so stick your calculators, abacus and lucky rabbits foot where the sun don't shine because I decide how much fuel I need. Full stop.
Really Oleo, what airline do you work for where accountants are ringing you up telling you how much fuel to carry? I would be surprised if anyone is being contacted by commercial to explain their fuel orders. Any pressure being applied is self-imposed. There is no need for an OM to spell out a plan b, that is implied in the responsibility of the PIC to carry whatever fuel he/she considers necessary to get the job done safely. The big problem with Adelaide is that the occurence of fog is so rare that if it is not on the forecast then the forecast will be accepted at face value. The problem in this incident is that when the crew of both aircraft were gathering the information on which to decide a course of action they were provided with faulty info regarding the weather at MIA. It simply isn't acceptable that having not forecast the fog in ADL that they provided information to Airservices that MIA would be wide open.
Warren, I am not sure
is an accurate or fair description of the current VA fuel policy nor is it an accurate description of the fuel management of VA crews.
I think you will find that it does at the very least give a diversion to the nearest suitable alternate even on a Cavok day.
It may not describe it as such but it does allow the diversion.
Crews are without doubt given FULL authority to carry what they wish and DO.
In 11 years I have never been counselled on my fuel requests.
A fuel policy will never satisfy all of the people all of the time and quite obviously is part of the overall risk management of the operation.
If that system evolves in the future from the lessons learnt from this incident then that also is part of a mature operation.
Quite simply full tanks would not satisfy some people on some days.
Equally it appears that the Met reporting system let several Airlines down on that particular day and if we as an Airline have to adjust for those continued flaws then it WILL happen
Perhaps reading posts on PPRuNe does not give a fair appraisal of the VA operation.
it's ok to depart without a plan b
is an accurate or fair description of the current VA fuel policy nor is it an accurate description of the fuel management of VA crews.
I think you will find that it does at the very least give a diversion to the nearest suitable alternate even on a Cavok day.
It may not describe it as such but it does allow the diversion.
Crews are without doubt given FULL authority to carry what they wish and DO.
In 11 years I have never been counselled on my fuel requests.
A fuel policy will never satisfy all of the people all of the time and quite obviously is part of the overall risk management of the operation.
If that system evolves in the future from the lessons learnt from this incident then that also is part of a mature operation.
Quite simply full tanks would not satisfy some people on some days.
Equally it appears that the Met reporting system let several Airlines down on that particular day and if we as an Airline have to adjust for those continued flaws then it WILL happen
Perhaps reading posts on PPRuNe does not give a fair appraisal of the VA operation.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Err Looleft it does happen. You wouldn't be aware of that though, spending your days in the boondocks of SA training student pilots and writing pointless submissions filled with nothing meaningful to senate inquiries. And I didn't say 'commercial' are ringing pilots telling them how much fuel to take. As usual you are not properly reading mor understanding posts and you are taking snippets where it suits and spinning them into a ridiculous story.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gosh.
If "0.1% chance" is the threshold, every forecast will include one or both of fog and TS!
How does that help?
If "0.1% chance" is the threshold, every forecast will include one or both of fog and TS!
How does that help?
The possibility of fog or TS forming is actually not that difficult to predict. It only becomes difficult when you try to convert that into a probability.
I'm not interested in the probability, I'm interested in the possibility.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lookleft Lyon, such anger? I guess that's what happens when you have been a supporter of the Liberals for over 50 years 
And you are still dribbling on about accountants, WTF. Pack up the Zimmer frame and go take a nap.
And surely you don't display such anger around other Chieftain fans? Naughty role model.
And you are still dribbling on about accountants, WTF. Pack up the Zimmer frame and go take a nap.
And surely you don't display such anger around other Chieftain fans? Naughty role model.
Last edited by 004wercras; 4th Jul 2013 at 01:32.
From the "Forty Years Ago"
Don't have to wait for CASA or ATSB.
AFAP had recognised the problem and a directive was in place
Last edited by 601; 4th Jul 2013 at 04:33.
Thanks Ventus top story!
Ironically not much has really changed..fog is still a show stopper and potentially a silent killer and the BoM still struggle to predict to the nth degree the onset of fog...guess that is why they call them forecasts and not.."today's weather will be!"
Couple of passages from the 40 years ago thread are worth highlighting (my bold):
Gold..pure gold..should be titled.."how the west was won!"
Agree 601...why bother waiting around for DCA??
Ironically not much has really changed..fog is still a show stopper and potentially a silent killer and the BoM still struggle to predict to the nth degree the onset of fog...guess that is why they call them forecasts and not.."today's weather will be!" Couple of passages from the 40 years ago thread are worth highlighting (my bold):
This philosophy was no more forcibly thumped into our psyche than at the end of July 1971 when Harold Rowell, with Alex Henry as F/O. left Perth on the “midnight horror” in VH-FKC for the run to Port Hedland, Broome and Derby – a run we’d all done a thousand times by then. It was one of those nights in winter when all ports are affected in some way by weather, it is a continual headache to work out your options, and your mind goes like a trip hammer for hours on end. Even Perth and Meekatharra were in and out of alternate conditions on this night and on arrival at Hedland, Harold re-checked the weathers at Broome and Derby, the met. man advising that Broome was socked in with fog but that Derby was CAVOK, with the wet and dry bulb temperatures 4º apart.
So leaving Port Hedland, Harold was carrying fuel for Derby – a trip time of only 54 minutes – and although we would all be suspicious of temperatures that close, he had no legal justification for carrying more fuel for say the next port of Kununurra. But unable to uplift all the passengers and cargo offloaded from the previous flight (due to the same sort of weather problems), yet mindful of the AFAP directive, and having an unusual “feeling” about the conditions, he took on an extra 800lb above that required. So they departed Hedland (where fog was already beginning to form), for Derby with nearly a full load of passengers, including the WA Rugby Team.
So leaving Port Hedland, Harold was carrying fuel for Derby – a trip time of only 54 minutes – and although we would all be suspicious of temperatures that close, he had no legal justification for carrying more fuel for say the next port of Kununurra. But unable to uplift all the passengers and cargo offloaded from the previous flight (due to the same sort of weather problems), yet mindful of the AFAP directive, and having an unusual “feeling” about the conditions, he took on an extra 800lb above that required. So they departed Hedland (where fog was already beginning to form), for Derby with nearly a full load of passengers, including the WA Rugby Team.
Agree 601...why bother waiting around for DCA??
Always amazed me Sarcs that the boys in the West only ever got the most marginal of aircraft to fly such large distances. The other interesting point is the role of the AFAP. Fortunately PICs no longer have to flight plan according to union directive.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Enroute from Dagobah to Tatooine...!
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Another point not mentioned about that flight is the amount of flak Harold copped over his decision making on that flight. He was hurt by the amount of 'armchair' experts dissecting the end result afterward. It is mentioned in the book about his fellow WWII compatriot Charles Learmonth in the book 'Wings of Destiny.'
In some ways it is sad that Harold is more famous for this event than his exploits in PNG during WWII which were truly remarkable.
In some ways it is sad that Harold is more famous for this event than his exploits in PNG during WWII which were truly remarkable.
Not much love for the BOM here. The fact is, we don't manufacture the weather. We can control much of the our flying environment, but we can't predict the weather, only offer estimates of what may happen.
The fact is that weather forecasting is far more accurate now than it has been in the past, now that the bom has more powerful supercomputers to model the weather. They can't get it it perfectly right, though, weather is chaotic. What is amazing is how accurate their forecasts are compared to just 20 years ago.
In other words, make sure you have enough fuel on board to cope with the unpredictable.
The fact is that weather forecasting is far more accurate now than it has been in the past, now that the bom has more powerful supercomputers to model the weather. They can't get it it perfectly right, though, weather is chaotic. What is amazing is how accurate their forecasts are compared to just 20 years ago.
In other words, make sure you have enough fuel on board to cope with the unpredictable.
In other words, make sure you have enough fuel on board to cope with the
unpredictable.
unpredictable.
How much discretion does the forecaster have in issuing a TAF with PROB FG even if the modeling doesn't suggest it will form? Can a forecaster be conservative with his/her forecasting based on experience and gut feeling?
I can understand the lack of a PROB FG for ADL, but given that why were the crews advised that MIA would be a suitable destination? Why wouldn't a forecaster use his/her experience and knowledge to think that if unforecast fog has formed at ADL then it is probable that it would also form at MIA?
Not much love for the BOM here. The fact is, we don't manufacture the weather. We can control much of the our flying environment, but we can't predict the weather, only offer estimates of what may happen.
If you are saying that the BOM cannot forecast properly you need to tell the government this and we need to get CAT III at every capital city airport in Australia and we need to rewrite the regulations in this country. The current situation is untenable and at worst is outright dangerous.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Florence
Age: 74
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
beancounters, technology and humans
What are the chances that the ATSB will think about the consequences of replacing the good old-fashioned but highly experienced met observer, whose true value lay in their propensity for a dingo's breakfast (quick slash and a sloowww look around), with AWS that may detect something in the narrow overhead window but sees nothing coming or going.
Will they question the seemingly increasing reliance by less knowledgeable pilots on METARs, which are merely a data snapshot from an unintelligent recording device? And to what extent is aviation truly being served by the withdrawal to centralised forecasting centres where macro phenomena are much better predicted but local phenomena like fogs and crappy weather on Norfolk and Christmas Islands are not?
Will the aviation community now get a bit more interested in the BoM TAF and TTF Reviews?
Will they question the seemingly increasing reliance by less knowledgeable pilots on METARs, which are merely a data snapshot from an unintelligent recording device? And to what extent is aviation truly being served by the withdrawal to centralised forecasting centres where macro phenomena are much better predicted but local phenomena like fogs and crappy weather on Norfolk and Christmas Islands are not?
Will the aviation community now get a bit more interested in the BoM TAF and TTF Reviews?
Last edited by Prince Niccolo M; 7th Jul 2013 at 05:10.