Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing
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601...practising an auto land in cavok conditions when LVPs are not in force or to a Cat1 ILS has more risk associated with it than an Auto Land done in anger when protections are in force. That's what simulators are for....
I am a big believer in the "if it aint broken don't f@ck with it" concept. But, how many OZ RPT flights have busted minimums this year as its their last option? Have any foreign carriers had to do the same?
Something just don't seem right.
The Don
Something just don't seem right.
The Don
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Could the Townsville refueller ask the Mildura refueller how much was left in the tanks?
It would have been interesting to have heard when they called Pan Pan for the fuel emergency. I would imagine the frequency lit up with activity shortly after!
Am I correct in my understanding that Virgin pilots aren't trained to use auto-land and company policy says it can't be used? Unless perhaps they had training from a previous employer...
Last edited by VH-XXX; 22nd Jun 2013 at 00:15.
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Jack. I understand what you are saying completely, and I agree that unforecast conditions can catch anyone out. It could even be described as 'unavoidable'...
My point is, just as airspace classification is designed to afford maximum protection to high capacity aircraft, I would have thought Airline policy would follow suit. I recall a 727 many years ago ex BN for AD had a crack at AD, 2 approaches at ML, got halfway to CB and ended up in LT....and that was a freighter. Because he could..
Note my original post
p.s oh, and you blokes who actually recommend the use of autoland at a non Cat3c aerodrome vice a sensible fuel policy, you may as well hand the whole job over to a computer and stay at home...
My point is, just as airspace classification is designed to afford maximum protection to high capacity aircraft, I would have thought Airline policy would follow suit. I recall a 727 many years ago ex BN for AD had a crack at AD, 2 approaches at ML, got halfway to CB and ended up in LT....and that was a freighter. Because he could..
Note my original post
RPT jet
Last edited by Hempy; 22nd Jun 2013 at 01:29.
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There was no fog mentioned on the ADL TAF. I was inbound to MEL and holding ADL as an alternate. MEL had fog forecast and we were getting updates hourly by Volmet. At no stage was fog mentioned on the ADL Volmet, at approx 2130GMT ADL wind was calm and temperature and dewpoint were 5/5. After a short discussion we decided to give the Glenelg pub away and use Coogee Bay Hotel as our new alternate.
Later that morning in Melbourne we got word of what had happened, it really hit home that things could have been a lot worse for all of us.
In my opinion the crew did a fantastic job. Well done to all.
ER
Later that morning in Melbourne we got word of what had happened, it really hit home that things could have been a lot worse for all of us.
In my opinion the crew did a fantastic job. Well done to all.
ER
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400ER,
Great post, the SYSTEM let the crews (Virgin and Qantas) down and both crews did a great job.
Most people on here and the media have been focusing on Virgin's fuel state, but the links below, prove Virgin diverted to MIA first with Qantas following. Based on this information, Virgin would have been in the circuit area first but for some reason they let Qantas land first. If you look at the QFA735 history it shows they held to the east of Adelaide before following Virgin to Mildura, so perhaps their fuel state was a bit more critical then Virgin when they arrived at Mildura.
The ATSB have stated they will be looking at the data and interviewing the crew of other aircraft, so I'm sure the ATSB will be able to find out why the Qantas 737 landed first.
I'm sure the Mildura refueler will know how much fuel was on board both aircraft.
Potentially we could be looking at 2 B737's that were in very similar situations and if that is the case the ATSB needs to find out how these crews were let down by the system(s).
Flight Track Log ? QFA735 ? 18-Jun-2013 ? YSSY / SYD - YPAD / ADL ? FlightAware
Flight Track Log ? VOZ1384 ? 18-Jun-2013 ? YBBN / BNE - YPAD / ADL ? FlightAware
Great post, the SYSTEM let the crews (Virgin and Qantas) down and both crews did a great job.
Most people on here and the media have been focusing on Virgin's fuel state, but the links below, prove Virgin diverted to MIA first with Qantas following. Based on this information, Virgin would have been in the circuit area first but for some reason they let Qantas land first. If you look at the QFA735 history it shows they held to the east of Adelaide before following Virgin to Mildura, so perhaps their fuel state was a bit more critical then Virgin when they arrived at Mildura.
The ATSB have stated they will be looking at the data and interviewing the crew of other aircraft, so I'm sure the ATSB will be able to find out why the Qantas 737 landed first.
I'm sure the Mildura refueler will know how much fuel was on board both aircraft.
Potentially we could be looking at 2 B737's that were in very similar situations and if that is the case the ATSB needs to find out how these crews were let down by the system(s).
Flight Track Log ? QFA735 ? 18-Jun-2013 ? YSSY / SYD - YPAD / ADL ? FlightAware
Flight Track Log ? VOZ1384 ? 18-Jun-2013 ? YBBN / BNE - YPAD / ADL ? FlightAware
Last edited by BPA; 22nd Jun 2013 at 02:24.
That's a good point 400ER.
If the ML area had been fogged out ( including Avalon) what would have been your situation? Is there a chance you would have started a divert to Adelaide before finding out it was fogged in also?
If the ML area had been fogged out ( including Avalon) what would have been your situation? Is there a chance you would have started a divert to Adelaide before finding out it was fogged in also?
What is a legal amount of fuel and what is a safe amount of fuel for any circumstance are two different things. A company will stipulate the LEGAL MINIMUM to be carried by their SOP's approved by CASA.CAR 234(the law of the land) stipulates the PIC must carry a SAFE amount of fuel. This is where pilots discretionary fuel comes into the equation. Many factors determine this amount, but it should not be determined by bean-counters or flt.ops departments because, at the end of the day, the PIC has the legal responsibility and will wear the consequences. It is he who will have to prove he carried a SAFE fuel load.
Have any foreign carriers had to do the same?
This year's fog season's track record speaks for itself with its multiple incidents resulting from an inept regulator, underequipped airports and domestic airline (fuel) managers ignoring the obvious.
It is embarrasing that Oz doesn't have facilities (LVO) even 3rd world airports can afford (Delhi has full CAT3B on 2 out of 3 runways for example...Lahore, Hanoi, TPE, BKK and KUL have CAT2 - these are just a few airports which come to mind but the list goes on)...
I wasn't there but from reading 11 pages of drama I would have elected to do an autoland on rwy 23 in ADL with a confirmation from the tower that the ILS beam is not infringed by any other planes or vehicles...
Does Mildura have the pavement strength for a 737?
Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 22nd Jun 2013 at 09:17.
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Metro Man, I know, it was just an example to illustrate the point that it's of no operational relevance whether the probability is 10 or 90%, it still requires the carriage of an alternate or holding. So why not just ditch the number or the term PROB entirely and just forecast it - the operational impact is precisely the same. PROB30 might give you a warm fluffy feeling that it's 70% not likely to happen but is operationally of no relevance.
That said, I believe tha the VA crew had nominated ML as there alternate so very curious as to why/how they ended up in mildura.
Can someone in the know advice if Qantas have an RNP approach into mildura? That might explain how they got in with presumably no dramas whereas virgin did what they did.
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Can someone in the know advice if Qantas have an RNP approach into mildura?
The PROB 30/40% can also have significance for ETOPS planning (ie PROB 30 can be disregarded for use as an ETOPS adequate preflight under some operators rules).
LeadSled, do you have any comments on this weeks events?
Last edited by FYSTI; 22nd Jun 2013 at 07:40.
On 6 June Leaddie said:
How many “alleged events” is Australia up to now?
Image how many more alleged events there would be if Australian carriers were flying a statistically significant number of hours!
Two alleged events happening to one Australian carrier over a short period of time do not invalidate the statistics that under pin the Australian legislation and CASA approved fuel policies…
Image how many more alleged events there would be if Australian carriers were flying a statistically significant number of hours!
Originally Posted by Holding At
It states in the jepps somewhere (will try and get the reference) that for nomination of a suitable alternate that prob30 is except able without requirement but prob40 too will need an alternate.
Me too...prob is prob...the numeric value doesn't matter (and yes...ICAO guideline is either 30 or 40).
You can ignore a "prob" if it is above the landing minima (ETOPS or alternate)...
You can ignore a "prob" if it is above the landing minima (ETOPS or alternate)...