Jetstar New Zealand Contract
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Still advertising for DECs for NZ ops.
Didnt a Dragon Captain just join Jetstar NZ DEC???
[QUOTE]Don't panic guys, I was offered a DEC position a while back but turned it down. Was just saying this new contract would tempt me. I don't know if they will offer me a job or not but I do know of people joining shortly as DEC's. Does the new contact forbid this?? Or does it say that internal candidates will be used first when they are suitable, if it is the second then I would hazard a guess you will see more DEC's from time to time.[QUOTE]
Only just ratified so nothing has been put in place due to the limited timeframe. The company has given "assurances" on NZ flying going to NZ based crew and internal upgrades where requirements for command are met. Obviously if there are no internal guys then there may well be DEC's
The great thing out of all of this is that NZ crew can now do NZ flying. During the negotiations NZ crew decided not to work on days off as the company was relying heavily on this to crew flights and NZ crew knew it would assist them in getting a better deal. This was all undermined by Australian based crew on days off in NZ working as many of their days off as they could. One Australian based pilot even came in off long service leave to cash in at the the NZ crew expense. I believe it was $8000 for two days? Thanks for that.
I hope to work internally in Aus during the EBA negotiations. Can't wait for that opportunity....imagine how much money I can make at the expense of the Austalian pilots? Actually on second thoughts that would be immoral so I won't do that, I will support my colleagues.
Last edited by stillgoing; 1st Apr 2013 at 05:56.
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It's always enlightening to be provided with some previously unknown fact that condones an action and then having the accusation made that i would take the moral high ground when faced with the very same situation when no further details are provided.
First of all I am not privy to these details so cannot comment on whether the person in question could wait and go public or had to go private or even the seriousness of the situation.
However I would suggest that at the very least the person in question could explain themselves to the NZ pilot group as to why they decided to "systematically" undermine the NZ pilot group cause.
The other Aus based pilots on days off in a NZ hotel also went to great lengths to collect the money on their days off at the expense of the NZ pilots Did they also have $75k expenses or did they simply want to buy a new car.
There are products generally known as private health insurance available and 8k is only 10% of the medical bill, hopefully it was worth it.
"Does the end justify the means"?
I don't know Framer, perhaps you can explain?
First of all I am not privy to these details so cannot comment on whether the person in question could wait and go public or had to go private or even the seriousness of the situation.
However I would suggest that at the very least the person in question could explain themselves to the NZ pilot group as to why they decided to "systematically" undermine the NZ pilot group cause.
The other Aus based pilots on days off in a NZ hotel also went to great lengths to collect the money on their days off at the expense of the NZ pilots Did they also have $75k expenses or did they simply want to buy a new car.
There are products generally known as private health insurance available and 8k is only 10% of the medical bill, hopefully it was worth it.
"Does the end justify the means"?
I don't know Framer, perhaps you can explain?
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So end of the day, the kiwis got their point across, the company took a significant hit arranging some short term cover to come across from oz, which in turn resulted in a new improved contract for the locals, and a few aussies made a few fast bucks in the process.
Surely a win win situation for all?
Surely a win win situation for all?
Still going,
I put forth that the NZ pilots undercut the Established Australian base in NZ. i also add that to whine and complain about Aus pilot coming to NZ is based on a false premiss. Aus pilots were based in NZ well before current NZ pilots. Is one calling the kettle black? Who undercut who?.......
I don't agree with guys going along to NZ willy nilly for the "CASH" but I would not begrudge anyone in a bind (child hospital bill would meet that criteria) nor would I begrudge those who did not have a choice I.e. rostered.
Fight the game, not the player because both sides have called Mum. I believe support is mutual, and Aus pilots support NZ pilots for a better deal. Very big of themselves seeing 16 positions which were on Australian contracts have now been replaced by NZ contracts one would think.
Congrats to the NZ guys on a better deal.
I put forth that the NZ pilots undercut the Established Australian base in NZ. i also add that to whine and complain about Aus pilot coming to NZ is based on a false premiss. Aus pilots were based in NZ well before current NZ pilots. Is one calling the kettle black? Who undercut who?.......
I don't agree with guys going along to NZ willy nilly for the "CASH" but I would not begrudge anyone in a bind (child hospital bill would meet that criteria) nor would I begrudge those who did not have a choice I.e. rostered.
Fight the game, not the player because both sides have called Mum. I believe support is mutual, and Aus pilots support NZ pilots for a better deal. Very big of themselves seeing 16 positions which were on Australian contracts have now been replaced by NZ contracts one would think.
Congrats to the NZ guys on a better deal.
Last edited by Bula; 1st Apr 2013 at 22:59.
Stillgoing,
While people are explaining themselves, perhaps every single J* NZ F/O should stand up and explain why they took a job which pays less than most King air operators?
j3
While people are explaining themselves, perhaps every single J* NZ F/O should stand up and explain why they took a job which pays less than most King air operators?
j3
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As they live in NZ and get paid in a NZ market how is this relevant? Ask what a king air pilot in NZ gets paid. It will certainly be less than a J* f/o.
I would suggest they took the job because it paid more than their turboprop job and gave them opportunity they wouldn't have had while waiting for Uncle Koru to hire, if that was their thing.
It may seem foreign to Australian pilots that NZ GA pay is very poor and regional flying not great pay either, so I understand ignorant posts like j3piper. So what may seem like badly paid jet jobs to some is not to others.
With NZ having different labour laws, much less militantly unionised work forces and the fact that being owned by Aussie companies can get away with paying kiwis less for the same job across the Tasman(due to exchange rates and market conditions), jobs like J*, JC and VANZ are good options.
And ask yourself honestly if you would be happy with kiwi pilots undermining you by coming to Aussie doing your flying while you try to get a better eba and to benefit at your expense as well?
I would suggest they took the job because it paid more than their turboprop job and gave them opportunity they wouldn't have had while waiting for Uncle Koru to hire, if that was their thing.
It may seem foreign to Australian pilots that NZ GA pay is very poor and regional flying not great pay either, so I understand ignorant posts like j3piper. So what may seem like badly paid jet jobs to some is not to others.
With NZ having different labour laws, much less militantly unionised work forces and the fact that being owned by Aussie companies can get away with paying kiwis less for the same job across the Tasman(due to exchange rates and market conditions), jobs like J*, JC and VANZ are good options.
And ask yourself honestly if you would be happy with kiwi pilots undermining you by coming to Aussie doing your flying while you try to get a better eba and to benefit at your expense as well?
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minimum wage, quite an appropriate namesake.
But maybe we shouldn't blame the pilots; how long can one be expected to sit around with no job while there's one across the ditch available.
Maybe the fact that it's legal for these shams to operate should be put at the centre of the blame game.
And yes, if it's any consolation, and it is quite a small one, at least it hasn't happened here... yet.
But maybe we shouldn't blame the pilots; how long can one be expected to sit around with no job while there's one across the ditch available.
Maybe the fact that it's legal for these shams to operate should be put at the centre of the blame game.
And yes, if it's any consolation, and it is quite a small one, at least it hasn't happened here... yet.
Minimums, ok I shall stand corrected. However are you telling me that NZALPA is less powerful than AFAP/AIPA/VIPA?
The Oz J* pilots were a VERY expensive stop gap while you stood up and demonstrated how inflexible you can be during negotiations, that was well done, honestly. This forced the company to realise how much the company ran on the goodwill of the pilots.
Paying a Captain almost 1 months wages for 2 days work isn't sustainable. The company obviously did this to minimise disruptions to your passengers who in the long run, pay the fuel bill. Getting your panties twisted over Oz pilots doing 'your flying' is ridiculous. Did you or did you not get a good outcome?
j3
The Oz J* pilots were a VERY expensive stop gap while you stood up and demonstrated how inflexible you can be during negotiations, that was well done, honestly. This forced the company to realise how much the company ran on the goodwill of the pilots.
Paying a Captain almost 1 months wages for 2 days work isn't sustainable. The company obviously did this to minimise disruptions to your passengers who in the long run, pay the fuel bill. Getting your panties twisted over Oz pilots doing 'your flying' is ridiculous. Did you or did you not get a good outcome?
j3
Last edited by j3pipercub; 2nd Apr 2013 at 01:50.
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Bahamas, not blaming any individuals, just asking a question. Airlines are all about making as much money for as little expense, and unfortunately, to them, pilots are just another expense.
And j3piper, I am not a J* pilot and never said so, but I do support these guys getting what the rightfully deserve, and yes they did a good job getting the company to pay attention.
And I never said that NZALPA was ineffective, however, the general attitude amongst nz pilots is not as militant as in oz. Probably because in nz the general work force is not as unionised as in oz, so the mentality people have when it comes to unions is just cultural, not personal.
In the Virgin group ask the oz guys about how they would feel about kiwis doing any 'Australian flying', taking 'Australian jobs', and god forbid if that happened during their EBA negotiations. It simply wouldn't and the kiwi boys would never have done it had they the choice. So I'm not getting anyone's panties in a twist, simply pointing out that when the shoe is on the other foot, all is not even.
And j3piper, I am not a J* pilot and never said so, but I do support these guys getting what the rightfully deserve, and yes they did a good job getting the company to pay attention.
And I never said that NZALPA was ineffective, however, the general attitude amongst nz pilots is not as militant as in oz. Probably because in nz the general work force is not as unionised as in oz, so the mentality people have when it comes to unions is just cultural, not personal.
In the Virgin group ask the oz guys about how they would feel about kiwis doing any 'Australian flying', taking 'Australian jobs', and god forbid if that happened during their EBA negotiations. It simply wouldn't and the kiwi boys would never have done it had they the choice. So I'm not getting anyone's panties in a twist, simply pointing out that when the shoe is on the other foot, all is not even.
With NZ having different labour laws, much less militantly unionised work forces
however, the general attitude amongst nz pilots is not as militant as in oz
Ozzy chaps you need to understand that the Jet* NZ deal was C%$P when it it was first released in NZ but it was significantly better than any GA job or Eagle, hence guys parted with their money. Now I personally do not agree with this (and have my own strong opinions) but everybody has their reasons so it's not our job to point fingers.
This us and them (NZ-OZ) that is consistently all over these forums is an absolute joke. Perhaps everybody should look at the bigger picture. An underpaid pilot group has had a major win increasing their terms and conditions. This is either luck or a sign of times to come, personally I'd like to think it's a sign of things to come for us all.
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I put forth that the NZ pilots undercut the Established Australian base in NZ. i also add that to whine and complain about Aus pilot coming to NZ is based on a false premiss. Aus pilots were based in NZ well before current NZ pilots. Is one calling the kettle black? Who undercut who?.......
By the way Impulse (Jetstar) undercut QF, was that the same or different?
I dont think you actually read my post. Aus based pilots have always been based in NZ throughout the life of Jetstar NZ. There is nothing wrong with that. What was not appreciated was guys flying in on days off or working them on days off when in the hotel in NZ. This was not rostered flying.
Very big of themselves seeing 16 positions which were on Australian contracts have now been replaced by NZ contracts one would think.
The new contract is ok, but could have been a lot better if we had suceeded in our strategy. This strategy was undermined end of story.
By the way sorry to hear a fellow pilot had to deal with a serious medical issue for his child.
Fight the game, not the player because both sides have called Mum. I believe support is mutual, and Aus pilots support NZ pilots for a better deal.
By the way Impulse (Jetstar) undercut QF, was that the same or different
And it was the Australian pilots on the EBA that gave up these positions to take the NZ contract. Once again you can blame that situation on the Australian based company managment for creating that situation.
Last edited by Bula; 2nd Apr 2013 at 07:50.
First let's get the facts right. In 2009 Jetstar NZ had $4402 dollars in the bank and could not pay it's bills. It secured a $15 million loan from Jetconnect to continue to operate. Then Jetstar NZ reported the interest they would have paid to Jetconnect as profit, as the $15 million loan was written off after twelve months. Guys the company are having a lend of you and do not forget it. The company will continue to play games with us and unfortunately pilots are pussies when it comes to new aircraft. David Hall admitted recently that Jetstar NZ continues to make a loss as does EVERY Jetstar franchise except Australia. Unite across the Tasmen for the future of our young pilots no matter how big your ego is.....
Last edited by busdriver007; 2nd Apr 2013 at 08:57.
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Unite, really? Can't see that happening any time soon, Australian crews seem to think that the nz crews are the scum for accepting a lesser contract...Doesnt matter what the company. Be it Jetstar, Qantas/JC or Virgin.
Australia has the bigger union base so if they were thinking, they would be standing up and trying to help nz get better conditions which reduces the threat of metal heading to another group on less money in the long term.
Just look at what V has done to the NZ crews with the integration document they have just signed off. Bottom of the list... No regard for length of service.They just looked at their back pocket and now they have a good pay rate and probably contract, now the nz crews are fighting for better money alone and conditions which could end up biting them in the arse down the track.
Boom sums it up on his last paragraph... Luck or a sign of things to come... Lesser money for nz, next they will introduce new planes based in nz, then hello B scale pay rates for all new hires, then next time Australian eba comes up they threaten to give domestic flying to nz crews because they can... Or you sign on slightly less money... And so on and so on... How many A scalers are still at Cathay just out of interest and is the money better now? That could happen in aus if we are all not careful. Not that Cathay had the other company situation...
No nz pilot really wants to shaft Au pilots, but seems that it doesn't go the other way, but even will slag our own just to move up one on the ladder. AND we should all try to prevent the issues of the late 80's repeating...
Australia has the bigger union base so if they were thinking, they would be standing up and trying to help nz get better conditions which reduces the threat of metal heading to another group on less money in the long term.
Just look at what V has done to the NZ crews with the integration document they have just signed off. Bottom of the list... No regard for length of service.They just looked at their back pocket and now they have a good pay rate and probably contract, now the nz crews are fighting for better money alone and conditions which could end up biting them in the arse down the track.
Boom sums it up on his last paragraph... Luck or a sign of things to come... Lesser money for nz, next they will introduce new planes based in nz, then hello B scale pay rates for all new hires, then next time Australian eba comes up they threaten to give domestic flying to nz crews because they can... Or you sign on slightly less money... And so on and so on... How many A scalers are still at Cathay just out of interest and is the money better now? That could happen in aus if we are all not careful. Not that Cathay had the other company situation...
No nz pilot really wants to shaft Au pilots, but seems that it doesn't go the other way, but even will slag our own just to move up one on the ladder. AND we should all try to prevent the issues of the late 80's repeating...
So does anyone actually know what the new figures are?
'cos I've been reading two pages of this drivel and I sure as $hit don't.
'cos I've been reading two pages of this drivel and I sure as $hit don't.
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 2nd Apr 2013 at 12:22.
