Qantas AIPA FWA Ruling Thurs 17th Jan
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The coalition was defeated in 07 on the back of the Work Choices fiasco; I doubt that they would have been eager to revisit draconian labour laws. Even the appearance of anti-worker legislation would have been electoral poison. The assertion that things would have been worse with a different government is not supported by fact or fear.
I consider myself an independent voter. The Liberals are the least smelly turd of the bunch, but still sewage.
I consider myself an independent voter. The Liberals are the least smelly turd of the bunch, but still sewage.
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Hey Ken, are these the same shareholders who voted Joyce and the board massive pay rises and set a nice low bar for future bonus's etc. Maybe some others should get a grip (ie share holders especially the instituitions)about an outcome that has cost QANTAS (read share holders) hundreds of millions of dollars and through their IR policy achieved an outcome in FWA that was stuff all. 
Last edited by Nunc; 18th Jan 2013 at 07:55.
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I agree the shareholders voted for this direction, and their own backing of Joyce has destroyed their own shares value, pretty simple really. Keep the workforce out of it this is management that has been endorsed by the shareholders, which has smashed the share price. Another reason never to put your money in airline shares....
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Compare the pair:
Pilot A negotiates a 3% p/a increase inline with Qantas corporate policy.
Pilot B submits to an arbitration. Skips a pay rise in 2011 and is paid 4.5% in 2012 then 3% thereafter - effectively a 6 month pay freeze.
YR__ Pilot A Pay__Pilot B Pay__Difference___Compounding Difference
2010__$200,000___$200,000____$0__________$0
2011__$206,000___$200,000____$6,000______$6,000
2012__$212,180___$209,000____$3,180______$9,180
2013__$218,545___$215,270____$3,275______$12,455
2014__$225,102___$221,728____$3,374______$15,829
2015__$231,855___$228,380____$3,475______$19,304
2016__$238,810___$235,231____$3,579______$22,883
2017__$245,975___$242,288____$3,686______$26,570
2018__$253,354___$249,557____$3,797______$30,367
2019__$260,955___$257,044____$3,911______$34,278
2020__$268,783___$264,755____$4,028______$38,306
2021__$276,847___$272,698____$4,149______$42,455
2022__$285,152___$280,879____$4,274______$46,729
2023__$293,707___$289,305____$4,402______$51,131
From, little things, big things, grow.
Every year you are worse off, and that amount only compounds. That is the miracle or curse of compound interest – depending on which side of the equation you are on. Ten years from now, the average QF pilot is $51,131 worse off.
Pilot A negotiates a 3% p/a increase inline with Qantas corporate policy.
Pilot B submits to an arbitration. Skips a pay rise in 2011 and is paid 4.5% in 2012 then 3% thereafter - effectively a 6 month pay freeze.
YR__ Pilot A Pay__Pilot B Pay__Difference___Compounding Difference
2010__$200,000___$200,000____$0__________$0
2011__$206,000___$200,000____$6,000______$6,000
2012__$212,180___$209,000____$3,180______$9,180
2013__$218,545___$215,270____$3,275______$12,455
2014__$225,102___$221,728____$3,374______$15,829
2015__$231,855___$228,380____$3,475______$19,304
2016__$238,810___$235,231____$3,579______$22,883
2017__$245,975___$242,288____$3,686______$26,570
2018__$253,354___$249,557____$3,797______$30,367
2019__$260,955___$257,044____$3,911______$34,278
2020__$268,783___$264,755____$4,028______$38,306
2021__$276,847___$272,698____$4,149______$42,455
2022__$285,152___$280,879____$4,274______$46,729
2023__$293,707___$289,305____$4,402______$51,131
From, little things, big things, grow.
Every year you are worse off, and that amount only compounds. That is the miracle or curse of compound interest – depending on which side of the equation you are on. Ten years from now, the average QF pilot is $51,131 worse off.
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Your figures don't take into account the timing of the payrises. From what I see, there has been no pay freeze at all compared to a 3% benchmark. The only thing missing is a little bit of backpay. That does not compound.
Marcellus,
Your point of compounding interest is true, however, the assumption
is a very big IF. QF is well aware of the effects of compounding interest and has a track record of delaying pay increases and stalling negotiations.
What is also worth noting is what the cost would be if some of QF's bigger ticket asks had been agreed to.
I believe that the backpay determination was meant to say to both employers and employees that there is no advantage to stonewalling for a determination for backpay.
Your point of compounding interest is true, however, the assumption
Pilot A negotiates a 3% p/a increase inline with Qantas corporate policy
What is also worth noting is what the cost would be if some of QF's bigger ticket asks had been agreed to.
I believe that the backpay determination was meant to say to both employers and employees that there is no advantage to stonewalling for a determination for backpay.
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Marcellus - Thnx for the work you have put in to this. It is the real way to measure things. I was thinking the same way however something has been pointed out in the thread that you appear not to have taken in to account.
The 3% wage rise was not due until July 11. So if 4.5% is paid in Jan 12, it may have been paid a little later but it is not a wage freeze because the increase ultimately went in (the 1.5 for 6 months).
Be interesting if you added a mid point in the chart. I reckon the loss is bugger all. Certainly it wouldn't cover the 178mill the dispute cost them.
The 3% wage rise was not due until July 11. So if 4.5% is paid in Jan 12, it may have been paid a little later but it is not a wage freeze because the increase ultimately went in (the 1.5 for 6 months).
Be interesting if you added a mid point in the chart. I reckon the loss is bugger all. Certainly it wouldn't cover the 178mill the dispute cost them.
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Big picture guys. What was the fight about to start with? The right to secure our flying as opposed to it being farmed out to the lowest bidders? As it had been under our contract for the last few years?
So the contract stays the same. The endless undercutting and rise of Jetstar, to be followed by QF link, and any other entity they dream will accelerate. Not to mention the big middle eastern shark looming with the scent of blood and our managers keenly feeding their own to it. Why? Because what can we do about it now? Repeat this dose in 2 years? Contract stays the same, and here people think they have had a big win when all they have done is ensure things continue down the same path.
I see it sadly as QF spending a couple of hundred million in order to break up the group and pit us all against each other. Will that be money well spent? Only time will tell.
I also think the next 6 months will reveal a lot. I wonder where QF international will be sitting in 12 months from now? It will get messy, and we are now bound by our contract to cop it royal, with nothing we can do.
As Fed Sec will point out, signing the deal does not end the pain. For some it is only the beginning.
So the contract stays the same. The endless undercutting and rise of Jetstar, to be followed by QF link, and any other entity they dream will accelerate. Not to mention the big middle eastern shark looming with the scent of blood and our managers keenly feeding their own to it. Why? Because what can we do about it now? Repeat this dose in 2 years? Contract stays the same, and here people think they have had a big win when all they have done is ensure things continue down the same path.
I see it sadly as QF spending a couple of hundred million in order to break up the group and pit us all against each other. Will that be money well spent? Only time will tell.
I also think the next 6 months will reveal a lot. I wonder where QF international will be sitting in 12 months from now? It will get messy, and we are now bound by our contract to cop it royal, with nothing we can do.
As Fed Sec will point out, signing the deal does not end the pain. For some it is only the beginning.
Last edited by Bazzamundi; 18th Jan 2013 at 11:08.
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Agreed, and I strongly suspect it would have been a lot worse under a coalition government.
As Fed Sec will point out, signing the deal does not end the pain. For some it is only the beginning.
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Another opportunity will arise, for yourselves and us hopefully, but until that opportunity will come more pain.
After your deal was signed off, the pain has stepped up for some. Like it will for us unfortunately.
Let's hope the opportunity happens soon. For the shorthaul people, some of whom have been quite happy sitting on the side watching it all unfold thinking they are safe, what will come of your EBA now?
Ours lost some conditions, got a basic payrise, and has allowed those that want to continue to carve us up. At the same time as some here treat it as a win.
After your deal was signed off, the pain has stepped up for some. Like it will for us unfortunately.
Let's hope the opportunity happens soon. For the shorthaul people, some of whom have been quite happy sitting on the side watching it all unfold thinking they are safe, what will come of your EBA now?
Ours lost some conditions, got a basic payrise, and has allowed those that want to continue to carve us up. At the same time as some here treat it as a win.
Bazza, I agree with your sentiment but think its not peeps celebrating a big win rather that given the gloom & doom kicked around by many makes it seem kinda positive compared to that...
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For the shorthaul people, some of whom have been quite happy sitting on the side watching it all unfold thinking they are safe, what will come of your EBA now?
Some of whom? Of whom are you speaking?
Some of whom? Of whom are you speaking?
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Is that the same short haul people who , when JQ arrived , tried to get the union involved only to be told that "it'll never happen don't worry about it ? " SH drivers are well versed in the undercuttings , maybe now they might get some help from the mother ship drivers !
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Shareholders are simply gamblers. The whole stockmarket is a massive casino. DOWN WITH CAPITALISM!!!
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What's with all these attacks on the SH crew all of a sudden?
Pull your head in guys, no one wants to hear your rambling. We know the SH EBA is due, lets all hope for a positive outcome (Bazza).
And as some have said, what's with all the focus on money? I thought the fight was about much more than that?!?!
Pull your head in guys, no one wants to hear your rambling. We know the SH EBA is due, lets all hope for a positive outcome (Bazza).
And as some have said, what's with all the focus on money? I thought the fight was about much more than that?!?!